[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

The idea that the city didn't *clearly* communicate to King that West Village was not going to fly with them before he went public is delusional.

Bingo, people are jumping on you because your opinion that both the City and the Flames are equally culpable is not rooted in a reasoned assessment of the evidence. The city has been upright and above board in this process and, if anything, they've shown flexibility and willingness to see something done. CSEC have not extended the same courtesy.

For you to contort this into an invalid and humdrum "both sides" argument is good reason to be called out.

Yes, city hall has come to the public and thrown a bunch of reasons (I didn't count) against the wall saying it won't work...
- cleanup
- cost of infrastructure
- we don't want to do west village until east is all done
- CRL is a problem
- etc...

People on both sides now get to focus on all sorts of issues and remedies, and if there was a simple solution, it is lost in the haze.

I am with Bingo on this. If West Village isn't going to work because you will do nothing there until East Village is done, then DON'T create a big fat report with all sorts of facts. Just say something like:

"We thank the Flames for coming up with this inventive idea to try and get development and cleanup going in the West Village. It is a novel idea, but the timeline just will not work for us, as we are not open to starting another major redevelopment in West Village until the East Village project is complete. If the Flames are prepared to wait until that time, maybe we can review then".

Doing a whole big report with lots of posturing, etc, just muddies the whole issue! Now there are other discussion points that everyone can focus on instead of just the one.

And again, why does everyone assume that the city told the Flames all the details before things became public... unless we are just trusting one side's posturing over the other side's. We know this White guy said something a few years ago to his colleagues and the newspaper - anyone actually tell the Flames? We can guess... or maybe they just waffled a lot, and weren't clear with the Flames either?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

The idea that the city didn't *clearly* communicate to King that West Village was not going to fly with them before he went public is delusional.

Bingo, people are jumping on you because your opinion that both the City and the Flames are equally culpable is not rooted in a reasoned assessment of the evidence. The city has been upright and above board in this process and, if anything, they've shown flexibility and willingness to see something done. CSEC have not extended the same courtesy.

For you to contort this into an invalid and humdrum "both sides" argument is good reason to be called out.

Never had the opinion that is was equal, even admitted I was probably more annoyed with Nenshi than King, but certainly made it clear that both sides have pissed me off.

Not sure why that isn't ok with everyone.

Have to point out the words again ...

So I have to be un-reasoned to disagree with you and I bend or twist information.

Don't think anything in my 17 year history on this site supports either, thanks.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

We know this White guy said something a few years ago to his colleagues and the newspaper - anyone actually tell the Flames?

... it's right there quoted for you:

We told them two years ago the challenge with this site

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Never had the opinion that is was equal, even admitted I was probably more annoyed with Nenshi than King, but certainly made it clear that both sides have pissed me off.

Not sure why that isn't ok with everyone.

Have to point out the words again ...

So I have to be un-reasoned to disagree with you and I bend or twist information.

Don't think anything in my 17 year history on this site supports either, thanks.

Originally Posted by Bingo

Wow that's a lot of loaded language there.

Would have been faster to say you just disagree with me, rather than creating a witch hunt in my head.

If you don't think a politician is legacy hunting than I guess I question where you've been for the last 100 years of human history. Of course he is.

The sad thing is the defense of the mayor responses to my posts seem to completely ignore the fact that I've said both sides have been pretty pathetic in this. I'm not in on either side making me a lot less "invented" or "tinted" than many.

I'm equally disappointed in both.

So which are you claiming isn't equal, their actions in this process or your disappointment in the way it has been handled?

Because you've plainly stated you're equally disappointed in both sides yet their actions don't seem to warrant an equal share which you seem to have alluded to in your latest post. This is why people are pointing out a bias in your stance.

People have biases, but when they're arguing around something like this, they should accept and admit them.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by nik-

So which are you claiming isn't equal, their actions in this process or your disappointment in the way it has been handled?

Because you've plainly stated you're equally disappointed in both sides yet their actions don't seem to warrant an equal share which you seem to have alluded to in your latest post. This is why people are pointing out a bias in your stance.

People have biases, but when they're arguing around something like this, they should accept and admit them.

ok anything else I should do?

Try defending the Flames and their presentation, or try suggesting King has been nothing but above board and professional. Maybe suggest that the Flames are victims in this and deserve better. Perhaps suggest that the timeline was fine from the Flames perspective and the city has let them down by taking too long.

Do any of those and you'll see my balance and the bias slipping away.

But right now it's all "mayor was a bit snarky, but the CSEC is evil incarnate", doesn't leave much of an opportunity to balance things out.

And not denying that quote, but when pushed by someone earlier I said the mayor annoyed me more, I can go dig it up if you want.

I'm always a little leery of people that get so mad when someone disagrees with them. hmmm ....

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Never had the opinion that is was equal, even admitted I was probably more annoyed with Nenshi than King, but certainly made it clear that both sides have pissed me off.

Not sure why that isn't ok with everyone.

Have to point out the words again ...

So I have to be un-reasoned to disagree with you and I bend or twist information.

Don't think anything in my 17 year history on this site supports either, thanks.

I can only speak for myself but disagreeing with you on this topic is not the same as believing you're unreasonable or twisting information, nor does it mean I am "hell bent" on agreeing with the mayor. I have read every single one of your posts and just can't see that there is much to criticize with the approach the city has taken on this. That doesn't make me a Nenshi supporter, sorry.

If your only point is that you personally are mad at both sides, then I guess you are and that's the end of it. To use your words, I am certainly OK with you thinking that way.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by Parallex

... it's right there quoted for you:

Still a complete unknown that everyone is making assumptions about.

Did they say, "There are these concerns with this site", or, "There is NO chance we are opening up West Village until East is done".

I don't know - you don't know - nobody does. Everyone here is an expert on what was said (maybe we all spend too much time at Orange Julius), but nobody REALLY knows.

And let's be honest - the Flames owners are businessmen too... they understand that they have better options to make $ if there is a whole area that can be developed instead of just a hole their arena can go into in the middle of a CMLC East Village project. Unless they truly believed they had no chance, they are going to try and go that way.

So who knows - maybe the Flames were told clearly and are ignoring it, and maybe they got the waffle treatment. Either way, all I know is that the public has got the waffle treatment and so we are focused on 20 different reasons why it won't work instead of "West won't happen until East is done".

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

....l I know is that the public has got the waffle treatment and so we are focused on 20 different ideas instead of "West won't happen until East is done".

What 20 ideas are you referring to? Seems to me the only option on the table is EV.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Bingo

ok anything else I should do?

Try defending the Flames and their presentation, or try suggesting King has been nothing but above board and professional. Maybe suggest that the Flames are victims in this and deserve better. Perhaps suggest that the timeline was fine from the Flames perspective and the city has let them down by taking too long.

Do any of those and you'll see my balance and the bias slipping away.

But right now it's all "mayor was a bit snarky, but the CSEC is evil incarnate", doesn't leave much of an opportunity to balance things out.

And not denying that quote, but when pushed by someone earlier I said the mayor annoyed me more, I can go dig it up if you want.

I'm always a little leery of people that get so mad when someone disagrees with them. hmmm ....

No one is saying CSEC is evil incarnate. The extreme stance, which is what I hold, is that money for pro arenas is a loser for municipalities, that they've done a terrible job at this, that King is the absolute wrong person to be handling this, and that the tactics are slimy. Not unexpected, but still slimy.

No one is mad, but it's pretty annoying when someone is claiming a high moral ground as a result of their stance on something when it's clearly not the case. You are on the Flames side on this. Lots of people are. It's fine to just own that.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

What 20 ideas are you referring to? Seems to me the only option on the table is EV.

Sorry - meant reasons why West Village/CNext won't work... I'll fix original psot.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I can only speak for myself but disagreeing with you on this topic is not the same as believing you're unreasonable or twisting information, nor does it mean I am "hell bent" on agreeing with the mayor. I have read every single one of your posts and just can't see that there is much to criticize with the approach the city has taken on this. That doesn't make me a Nenshi supporter, sorry.

If your only point is that you personally are mad at both sides, then I guess you are and that's the end of it. To use your words, I am certainly OK with you thinking that way.

absolutely, sorry to lump you in

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

I am with Bingo on this. If West Village isn't going to work because you will do nothing there until East Village is done, then DON'T create a big fat report with all sorts of facts. Just say something like:

facepalm (to your entire post). Can you not imagine CNext supporters outrage if the City shot down the idea without showing any work? The report served at least two functions - examine whether there was any merit to the CNext idea, and actually explore what the next steps will need to look like in WV. Until now, it's been a biq question mark of how many 000's it might cost and how long it might take. The City now has some very valuable information for future considerations.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by nik-

No one is saying CSEC is evil incarnate. The extreme stance, which is what I hold, is that money for pro arenas is a loser for municipalities, that they've done a terrible job at this, that King is the absolute wrong person to be handling this, and that the tactics are slimy. Not unexpected, but still slimy.

No one is mad, but it's pretty annoying when someone is claiming a high moral ground as a result of their stance on something when it's clearly not the case. You are on the Flames side on this. Lots of people are. It's fine to just own that.

can I get you pop by and help me with what I think on other topics too? This is quite a service you're providing here.

just go over your damn statements.

when did I claim a high moral ground? I'm just not in the habit of making accusations, telling people I know more about what they think than they do, or make silly statements like "you're wrong" or "you don't get it".

That's not moral high ground, it's class.

But in the end you're mistaken about my thinking. I'm not on the Flames side at all. Not sure how many times I have to go through what both sides have done wrong only to have the city's side defended to prove that. Hell I even went into point form a complete summary of my thoughts, which has been largely ignored in order to defend the honor of his honor.

[GGG]

I actually think part of the reaction to Bingo is that on most issues he is a voice of reason and provides a very rational fact based argument. Whereas in this case it seems like the city has done everything he asking the city to do but can't get past Nenshi being a Wanker.

So when a rational person presents and irrational position you believe that you should be able to have a reasonable discussion to bring that person onto your side.

Hence the circular argument of The city should have done these things, well the city did these things and here's a bunch of links to reports showing how detailed they were in doing it and goes around and around.

[powderjunkie]

Bingo, I sincerely don't understand your conclusion. I think I more/less understand your view of the situation (and even tend to agree with it for the most part), but I think many of us are confused to how the sum becomes somewhere between 'equal annoyance to more annoyed with the mayor/city'? It just doesn't add up for me.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I think you can probably take the tireless arguing with you as something of a compliment. I wouldn't waste my time if I thought you were simply an idiot - as you said, you have a loooooong body of work here that says otherwise. When someone I respect for taking a measured approach to things (FWIW on an internet forum about hockey) has a strong opinion on something contrary to my own, I am sincerely eager to try to understand it.

Through these last pages, I only feel more confused - the evidence you present is (mostly) measured and reasonable, but your conclusion seems to come out of left field. I admire you sticking to your guns, but I simply don't understand!

Originally Posted by Bingo

-I think Nenshi is a wanker
-I think King is a blowhard
-I think they both like themselves more than the actual project or their jobs
-I think its a pretty normal ask from the owners for public money as that's what Edmonton and a host of other Canadian cities have done.
-I think the city has every right to deny it.
-I think the answer will largely come in with some public money, and a host of other elements much less than what the Flames are looking for.
-I think a mayor trying to land an olympics at the same time he thwarts a building project is odd
-I think the Flames meant well with CalgaryNext as a way to develop the west side and get the city some wins in the process.
-I think they did a terrible job of how they presented it, as I feel a "this is why we think it fits" presentation would have gone a lot further than the "you need to do this because Calgary needs it" approach.
-I think the city wants a building in East Village and because of that they will have to kick in
-If they don't I think we'll see a building towards Langdon funded by the team completely which nobody wants

Regardless of the points here that I don't fully agree with (I think rebutted in the last day or two), reading this for only what it is, I arrive at a sum of of 'annoyance to both sides, but the Flames have done more wrong'.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by GGG

Whereas in this case it seems like the city has done everything he asking the city to do but can't get past Nenshi being a Wanker.

Yah, pretty well. But don't tell him that's what he's doing! You don't know. Nobody knows! It's a hermetically sealed mystery!

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Through these last pages, I only feel more confused - the evidence you present is (mostly) measured and reasonable, but your conclusion seems to come out of left field. I admire you sticking to your guns, but I simply don't understand!

Regardless of the points here that I don't fully agree with (I think rebutted in the last day or two), reading this for only what it is, I arrive at a sum of of 'annoyance to both sides, but the Flames have done more wrong'.

I'll try again, maybe this puts this to bed and I can get back to worrying about goaltending.

The Flames took to long.

If they were told to skip the West Village and soldiered on, then they are either foolish, or perhaps un-trusting of the mayor or city hall in that conclusion.

I hated their presentation. I was there at the Royce Theatre and rolled my eyes. They were so disingenuous to have Commonwealth listed as a new stadium because they had renovations but then had the Saddledome listed at the build date and ignored the renovations that happened there.

To his credit Nenshi was equally as disingenuous the other day when he referred to the flood fix as a renovation as well, so I guess they deserve each other.

I believe, but can't prove, that the club ownership were honest in thinking they had a solution that could solve a multitude of problems for the city, but they would have been smarter to admit their own gains as well instead of selling it as a "we will help make Calgary a world class city" argument.

I hope the club ownership wasn't as naive as this presentation bore, and that they just picked the wrong front man to head it up, but then they had to have signed off on it, so you really can't cut them any slack.

King's response to almost any question since has been condescending and off the mark in my mind for what the city is really thinking. I don't think he's the right guy to be in this debate.

The mayor came out shooting from the get go with a lot of snarkiness and disrespect in my mind.

He's matched and in my mind exceeded King to some degree in his smugness and blatant painting of a city as a united front when clearly that's not the case.

I don't honestly believe assigning all the costs to a project that takes up 30% of the land area is fair as I see it as a Development A vs Development B comparison. If the city has no plan on ever developing the West then it's more true, but then it shouldn't have been summarized as the CSEC was way off on their cost summary. I personally (no one has to agree with me) would have respected them more for just saying "we don't want to go forward in the West at this time. In the future sure, but at I don't think the CSEC can wait that long."

My spidey sense through Uber, the math issue, and the building discussion has really pushed my opinion of the mayor into the toilet, something I think can be seen as shared by the actions of alderman to his unilaterally killing CalgaryNext and the 8 that started their own survey as a way to cut through the rhetoric (all my assumptions and conclusions)

I think the fact that we bought the man a trip to Brazil so he could give himself a legacy of the Olympics while consistently snarking at a future partner for facilities that will be needed to land said Olympics was the epitome of double speak, and really bizarre.

So I'm not just hammering one side. They both annoy the hell out of me.

Hopefully we can just leave this now.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

Yes, city hall has come to the public and thrown a bunch of reasons (I didn't count) against the wall saying it won't work...
- cleanup
- cost of infrastructure
- we don't want to do west village until east is all done
- CRL is a problem
- etc...

People on both sides now get to focus on all sorts of issues and remedies, and if there was a simple solution, it is lost in the haze.

I am with Bingo on this. If West Village isn't going to work because you will do nothing there until East Village is done, then DON'T create a big fat report with all sorts of facts. Just say something like:

"We thank the Flames for coming up with this inventive idea to try and get development and cleanup going in the West Village. It is a novel idea, but the timeline just will not work for us, as we are not open to starting another major redevelopment in West Village until the East Village project is complete. If the Flames are prepared to wait until that time, maybe we can review then".

Doing a whole big report with lots of posturing, etc, just muddies the whole issue! Now there are other discussion points that everyone can focus on instead of just the one.

And again, why does everyone assume that the city told the Flames all the details before things became public... unless we are just trusting one side's posturing over the other side's. We know this White guy said something a few years ago to his colleagues and the newspaper - anyone actually tell the Flames? We can guess... or maybe they just waffled a lot, and weren't clear with the Flames either?

Wow a plea for ignorance, now I have heard it all on this subject. I'm out of here.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by nik-

So which are you claiming isn't equal, their actions in this process or your disappointment in the way it has been handled?

Because you've plainly stated you're equally disappointed in both sides yet their actions don't seem to warrant an equal share which you seem to have alluded to in your latest post. This is why people are pointing out a bias in your stance.

People have biases, but when they're arguing around something like this, they should accept and admit them.

You can be equally disappointed in 2 things and not blame them equally though. They are not the same thing.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

facepalm (to your entire post). Can you not imagine CNext supporters outrage if the City shot down the idea without showing any work? The report served at least two functions - examine whether there was any merit to the CNext idea, and actually explore what the next steps will need to look like in WV. Until now, it's been a biq question mark of how many 000's it might cost and how long it might take. The City now has some very valuable information for future considerations.

facepalm (see, I can do that too, though i mean no offense in doing so)...

I really don't get why everyone on the "Pro-City" side of this discussion is so staunchly there with no desire to understand other points of view.

Sure there would have been some outrage - no way to please 100% of the people (as every single person on this board knows by reading any thread we have here).

That doesn't change the fact that an idea or proposal does NOT need an official report to be rejected. If I propose something to the City, does that mean they need to issue a formal response just because I propose something?

I do understand that CSEC is a bigger fish than I am, and this is a large and significant proposal, but I also believe (as you stated) the biggest benefactor of the report that the City commissioned was the city itself. It learned a lot about WV, and what it will need to worry about in '10 years' or whenever 'future considerations' comes up. I still don't believe that the city needed the report to say No to the Flames.

If the Flames said, "Let's bulldoze the Big 4 and build an arena there", would the City and/or the Stampede Board come up with a bunch of research to back their position of, "No, this does not fit with our plans because of x."? Of course not, and rational human beings would understand why (yes, that means not everyone would understand - probably much outrage too).