Coalition Deal To Topple Minority Tory Govt- [Update Parliament Prorogued until Jan]

[Bobblehead]

How well do have the leaders with english as their native language spoken french?

Dion was always ridiculed for his poor english, and it reflected poorly upon his abilities. While I grant he was a brutal leader, I think he is probably a very intelligent man. However his poor grasp of english and his ability to be baited in parliament to the point twhere he was so angry his english actually degraded, really mad him look like a buffoon.

Do the english leaders suffer a similar fate in reverse when they campaign in french?

[Devils'Advocate]

Absolutely.

However, though I almost never, ever have a nice word to say about Harper, I will say this - his french is very good which is amazing since he only seriously started learning when he became party leader. When listening to the french debate Layton and May sounded quite poor and using such simple language that they seemed less intelligent than Dion or Duceppe (I know I'm walking into one there... just leave it alone). Harper on the other hand was able to keep pace. I have noticed this in past debates as well.... Anglophones sound just as disjointed in French as Dion does in English. Unless they are truely bilingual, which I would say Harper is now.

[Bertuzzied]

So what happens when you have no stimulus plan and you suspend govt until mid January? You get a deeper then expected 75 point basis cut to the lending rate and the markets go into the negative. Ugly.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

How well do have the leaders with english as their native language spoken french?

Dion was always ridiculed for his poor english, and it reflected poorly upon his abilities. While I grant he was a brutal leader, I think he is probably a very intelligent man. However his poor grasp of english and his ability to be baited in parliament to the point twhere he was so angry his english actually degraded, really mad him look like a buffoon.

Do the english leaders suffer a similar fate in reverse when they campaign in french?

I think he has some obvious weaknesses and he got taken to the cleaners over them. It's unfortunate, but all of his weaknesses are the very things that a leader needs to be strong in: speaking, clarity of thought, not easily baited, able to stand up for something without getting flustered... etc etc.

He does seem very intelligent, and I actually feel sorry for the guy. He's probably someone that would be very cool to talk to and learn from... but... When selecting a person to lead a country, it's probably best to avoid the people that cause you to feel sorry them.

In contrast, Harper may be a bit of an ass... but no one can argue his ability to lead.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

How well do have the leaders with english as their native language spoken french?

Dion was always ridiculed for his poor english, and it reflected poorly upon his abilities. While I grant he was a brutal leader, I think he is probably a very intelligent man. However his poor grasp of english and his ability to be baited in parliament to the point twhere he was so angry his english actually degraded, really mad him look like a buffoon.

Do the english leaders suffer a similar fate in reverse when they campaign in french?

Nope there, seems to be a high standard in terms of French, especially if you want to be a party leader.

I know Harper had to work very hard on his french.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

Well the Liberals just got stronger.

Ignatieff wins Liberal leadership without a fight.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics...684061-cp.html

Rae definitely saw the writing on the wall. He knew that the only way he had a chance to be elected leader of the Liberal party was if the election was open to every Liberal party member.
He knew the deck was stacked against him with the "limited" participation (800 party members) being allowed in the vote.

The good news, however, for us Conservative party supporters is....

A key issue for Liberals is who would fare best in a general election against Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservative party. An Angus Reid poll released Monday suggested that Harper would easily beat a Bob Rae-led Liberal party. The same poll also suggested that Michael Ignatieff would also lose, but by a much smaller margin.


The poll suggested that, were an election to be held now, the Liberals under Rae would garner 26 per cent of the vote versus 41 per cent for the Conservatives.
Meanwhile, the poll suggested that Ignatieff would lead the Liberals to 33 per cent of the vote compared with 38 per cent for the Harper Conservatives.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...eadership.html

[BlackEleven]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

How well do have the leaders with english as their native language spoken french?

Dion was always ridiculed for his poor english, and it reflected poorly upon his abilities. While I grant he was a brutal leader, I think he is probably a very intelligent man. However his poor grasp of english and his ability to be baited in parliament to the point twhere he was so angry his english actually degraded, really mad him look like a buffoon.

Do the english leaders suffer a similar fate in reverse when they campaign in french?

In a word: yes. Harper was widely critized here in Quebec for his poor French. However, he has recently dramatically improved his French and speaks virtually flawlessly (still with an anglo accent, but grammar, syntax etc are spot on), so its barely mentioned in the media any more.

In the most recent leadership debates, the French media was particularly hard on May for her barely understandable French (worse than Dion's English).

[CaptainCrunch]

Which is why the Liberal's need to lay low, work with the Conservatives and rebuild their party and their bank accounts. If they were smart, they'd take a year for the Canadian Publics bitterness over this attempted coalition to fade, they'd move away from the uber lefts and try to become the voice of moderation in the house

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I think he has some obvious weaknesses and he got taken to the cleaners over them. It's unfortunate, but all of his weaknesses are the very things that a leader needs to be strong in: speaking, clarity of thought, not easily baited, able to stand up for something without getting flustered... etc etc.

He does seem very intelligent, and I actually feel sorry for the guy. He's probably someone that would be very cool to talk to and learn from... but... When selecting a person to lead a country, it's probably best to avoid the people that cause you to feel sorry them.

In contrast, Harper may be a bit of an ass... but no one can argue his ability to lead.

I can.

He is far from a natural public speaker, often looking wooden and seeming to smile only when he remembers that he should smile. He is overly controlling; enforcing his will by attempting to control or silence dissent. When angry he comes across as menacing.

He is smart enough to lead, but he does not have the charisma to inspire people to follow.

I don't know much about Ignatief. My initial impressions are that he is cut from the same cloth as Harper. And that may be a good thing, it means issues can be discussed on their substance as opposed to style.

But it sure would be nice to have a leader that Canada could rally behind.

[corporatejay]

Which is why the Liberal's need to lay low, work with the Conservatives and rebuild their party and their bank accounts. If they were smart, they'd take a year for the Canadian Publics bitterness over this attempted coalition to fade, they'd move away from the uber lefts and try to become the voice of moderation in the house

That's asking a lot.

As I've said before, this is Liberal country, the Conservatives just win sometimes when the Liberals suck the big one...it's only a matter of time until the Libs become the majority again...I don't see the rush.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I can.

He is far from a natural public speaker, often looking wooden and seeming to smile only when he remembers that he should smile. He is overly controlling; enforcing his will by attempting to control or silence dissent. When angry he comes across as menacing.

He is smart enough to lead, but he does not have the charisma to inspire people to follow.

I don't know much about Ignatief. My initial impressions are that he is cut from the same cloth as Harper. And that may be a good thing, it means issues can be discussed on their substance as opposed to style.

But it sure would be nice to have a leader that Canada could rally behind.

Yeah, he loses points on his campaign speech abilities, but I was referring to his ability to set a plan and follow through. He quietly gets things done. He doesn't take days off, he gets things done on time without a lot of fanfare and jumping up and down. Also, when he talks, he usually has something to say. He makes his point and his point is (usually) very clear. Sure he's a robot and he wears sweaters, but the Prime Minister is a job, it's not like the Governor General who just has to look good. The PM actually has to accomplish things, and I'd rather elect someone who shows up to work every day than someone else whose main focus is just to have a good time.

It's not just Dion's poor English that made him hard to understand. He's always trying to finish three thoughts at the same time. It made it very frustrating for people who were actually making an honest effort to put the language thing aside and really listen to him. It was impossible, though. Not to mention the guy is a complete pushover.


Edit: I'm just going to add that this is MY perception of Harper. I'm sure there are a few quotable instances in his lifetime where he hasn't gotten something done, or whatever, but this is all just why I like the guy - and why I voted for him. It seems to me that Harper is very much a "love him or hate him" kind of person. I don't think I know anyone who is just simply indifferent about him.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

It seems to me that Harper is very much a "love him or hate him" kind of person. I don't think I know anyone who is just simply indifferent about him.

Definitely... and there are a lot of people out there who hate him.

There are still a lot of people out there who think he still has a "hidden agenda" or just plain don't like him, as one person put it to me, "because I can see the evil in his eyes". I mean ... WTF? How can you argue against that?

Dion goes on and on about how the Conservatives poisoned his image in the public's eyes and thats why the public doesn't respect him, but frankly, the Liberals did an way bigger hatchet job on Harper. The lies they spread about him, and in some instances continue to spread, are/were way overboard and extremely malicious....

Its no wonder Harper tried to kill the Liberal party when he saw the opportunity. I doubt he has any respect for a party that has maligned his character so much over the past years.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Definitely... and there are a lot of people out there who hate him.

There are still a lot of people out there who think he still has a "hidden agenda" or just plain don't like him, as one person put it to me, "because I can see the evil in his eyes". I mean ... WTF? How can you argue against that?

Dion goes on and on about how the Conservatives poisoned his image in the public's eyes and thats why the public doesn't respect him, but frankly, the Liberals did an way bigger hatchet job on Harper. The lies they spread about him, and in some instances continue to spread, are/were way overboard and extremely malicious....

Its no wonder Harper tried to kill the Liberal party when he saw the opportunity. I doubt he has any respect for a party that has maligned his character so much over the past years.

You may feel Harper had a right to try that, but for people on the fence that may just be confirmation of their fears about Steven Harper.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Rerun

Definitely... and there are a lot of people out there who hate him.

There are still a lot of people out there who think he still has a "hidden agenda" or just plain don't like him, as one person put it to me, "because I can see the evil in his eyes". I mean ... WTF? How can you argue against that?

Well, I'm still waiting for him to unleash his Sith Powers, bring down the Confederation, and raise and empire that will last a thousand thousand years, all while naming me as his highly paid apprentice.

Originally Posted by Rerun

Dion goes on and on about how the Conservatives poisoned his image in the public's eyes and thats why the public doesn't respect him, but frankly, the Liberals did an way bigger hatchet job on Harper. The lies they spread about him, and in some instances continue to spread, are/were way overboard and extremely malicious....

The Liberal stance on the Conservative attack strategies are faily hypocritical, they have basically tried to paint Harper as an agent of Satan with a Military slant since day one. When Martin was running for re-election, I remember that he continually had a plan that he never released, however Harper in government would destroy everything that we as Canadian's hold dear. Its a lazy tactic on both sides, and its tiring to the voters who just for once would like to see a debate on the issues instead of a smear fest. Both sides are equally rotten though.

Originally Posted by Rerun

Its no wonder Harper tried to kill the Liberal party when he saw the opportunity. I doubt he has any respect for a party that has maligned his character so much over the past years.

Tactically, Harper has played the Liberal's fairly well since day one, and he knows that he has them over the barrel in terms of leadership and finance, and the opportunity to plunge that knife into them was just way to powerfull. The smart thing would have been to get the budget passed, then introduce the election funding reform bill as an individual item in the house and not as a confidence motion. If the combined Libs, NDP and Bloc vote it down, then you have a ton of ammo for the next election.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

You may feel Harper had a right to try that, but for people on the fence that may just be confirmation of their fears about Steven Harper.

I used the word KILL and that perhaps is an overstatement. CRIPPLE is a much better word.

.... also, it seems (from polls taken) that the majority of people are in favour of cancelling the public subsidy (ie. $1.95 per vote) of political parties. So I don't really think that John Q Public had/has too much of a problem with it.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Well, I'm still waiting for him to unleash his Sith Powers, bring down the Confederation, and raise and empire that will last a thousand thousand years, all while naming me as his highly paid apprentice.

You made me laugh!!!!!!!!!! Good one.

[Potty]

Originally Posted by Rerun

.... also, it seems (from polls taken) that the majority of people are in favour of cancelling the public subsidy (ie. $1.95 per vote) of political parties. So I don't really think that John Q Public had/has too much of a problem with it.

Link? I was arguing this with a friend and would love to e-mail him any poll data.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Potty

Link? I was arguing this with a friend and would love to e-mail him any poll data.

There was a link or two in this thread, a few pages back. Might actually be quite a few pages back by now, though.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Rerun

I used the word KILL and that perhaps is an overstatement. CRIPPLE is a much better word.

.... also, it seems (from polls taken) that the majority of people are in favour of cancelling the public subsidy (ie. $1.95 per vote) of political parties. So I don't really think that John Q Public had/has too much of a problem with it.

I agree on both those counts, but the action has still opened up the "I told you so" possibilities in the next campaign.

If the CPC had followed the strategy as the Cap'n laid out the whole mess could have been averted, the fiscal package would have been passed, this potential future election smear wouldn't be available, the opposition would still be fractured, and Harper would have had Dion's weak leadership to toy with for 5 more months.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Potty

Link? I was arguing this with a friend and would love to e-mail him any poll data.

Here's a link to the National Post story published on Dec. 5/08...

http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_p...tml?id=1033828

61% oppose federal funding for parties...
.... Ipsos Reid, which conducted the telephone survey of 1,001 adults this week