Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

I for one am excited..

Not because Lucic is better than Neal or because Lucic will turn things around and become a 50pt guy.

I'm excited because its something different... I was already sick of watching Neal here. His cap hit was already dead weight because he doesnt fit in our top 6 and our bottom 6 is better suited for guys like Bennett, Ryan, Mangiapane, Dube and Jankowski.

I know there would have still been room for him from a numbers perspective but I still dont like the fit.

Lucic will cause some sh#t out there and I like that.. injecting more emotion into games can only be a good thing for this team. We play better when we get angry and we play better when we are confident.

I think having Lucic around will inject some confidence in our group to not only have the ability to outscore teams but also respond physically when the chips are down or when a team keeps taking liberties.

Neal didnt offer much when he didnt score points so I'm excited to see some more value out of that cap hit even if that value cannot always be quantified the same way goal scoring can.

Agreed. Our scorers don't have the types of games or personalities to be fighting off the chippy, cheap stuff as well as be productive skill players when it starts to compound and become a regular issue. The distraction of looking over their shoulders and getting frustrated when they didn't get justice from the officials got to them at times and put them off their games. If Lucic can keep the opposition more law-abiding out there and it gives Gaudreau and Monahan less to worry about, then ultimately I think that pays off in a huge way.

If Gaudreau gets hacked illegally and egregiously again he now knows that even if the call doesn't come, that Lucic will get up close and personal with that player when the opportunity arises. If he is indeed one of the most feared guys (probably partly because he has been known to be reckless in the past), then maybe you no longer have the Minnesota wild chopping Johnny 40 times over the course of a game with no second thought about it. Over the course of a season, that deterrent probably pays off in other areas notably. I'd wager the wear and tear probably has had a lot to do with Gaudreau in particular fading in the latter months of the season.

[jayswin]

This is a really bad trade
Neal wasn't a fit here
This is a really bad trade
Neal wasn't a fit here
This is a really bad trade
Neal wasn't a fit here
This is a really bad trade
Neal wasn't a fit here
This is a really bad trade
Neal wasn't a fit here

I guess after awhile there's only so much that can be said, but boy has it really locked into two comments lately.

[CalgaryFan1988]

^^^^ Insert "why not both" meme.

[Nelson]

Ignoring contract issues, Andrew Berkshire of Sportsnet still sees this as a win for the Oilers, which is not good for the Flames because Lucic comes with horrific contract issues - a very good read.

[VilleN]

I don’t trust what a lot of the media are saying about this trade. They likely didn’t watch Neal last season. If they had, I don’t think they’d be singing the Oilers praises on this trade. We all saw. We all waited for him to turn it around. He sucked. Every. Single. Game.

[tkflames]

Wow...2300 posts largely caught in a loop. Can we all agree that on the ice, both teams are in slightly less worse situations and let this play out in real games?? Speculating on future uncertainties as though they are fact will leave a log in this thread with quotable for years to come (at least thr next 4 anyways...)

[JTech780]

Originally Posted by VilleN

I don’t trust what a lot of the media are saying about this trade. They likely didn’t watch Neal last season. If they had, I don’t think they’d be singing the Oilers praises on this trade. We all saw. We all waited for him to turn it around. He sucked. Every. Single. Game.

I agree. I think people that are saying the Oilers won this trade are basing it off of reputation. Neal has a reputation of being an elite goal scorer, which isn't the case anymore and hasn't been for sometime now, and Lucic has the reputation of being a bust with Edmonton and being nothing more than a knuckle dragger at this point, which isn't 100% accurate.

When you look closer at the numbers, the offense is much more comparable over the last 3 years, but Lucic shows to have better possession stats, be better defensively and be better physically.

Neal might bounce back and score 20 goals next season, though I doubt it, but he still will manage to drag down whatever line he is on because he is so bad defensively and really doesn't bring anything to the table.

[the_only_turek_fan]

I wonder if this deal happens if the Kadri Brodie trade went through?

Or was BT going to get both Kadri and Lucic?

[Heavy Jack]

I think it still goes through because the team wanted Neal off of it and seemingly the only trade on the table was Lucic/Neal.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

I wonder if this deal happens if the Kadri Brodie trade went through?

Or was BT going to get both Kadri and Lucic?

I would imagine it would have been both. The Kadri deal was about improving the 3rd line centre position. This Lucic deal was about size and getting Neal off the roster.

Lucic - Kadri - Bennett



...and then had we been able to dump Frolik's deal and sign Ferland...

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Backlund - Ferland
Lucic - Kadri - Bennett
Mangiapane - Ryan - Dube
Czarnik

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I would imagine it would have been both. The Kadri deal was about improving the 3rd line centre position. This Lucic deal was about size and getting Neal off the roster.

Lucic - Kadri - Bennett



...and then had we been able to dump Frolik's deal and sign Ferland...

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Backlund - Ferland
Lucic - Kadri - Bennett
Mangiapane - Ryan - Dube
Czarnik

Frolik’s deal being dumped would have been needed to sign Bennett/Rittich/Tkachuk.

The Kadri and Lucic trades would have also saved the team $2.4M. Not confirmed but the Kadri deal I heard included Ottawa eating half of Brodie’s deal and getting Connor Brown as part of it. The original trade would have given the leafs more cap relief as Brodie at 50% retained is less than Barrie and Janko’s 1.75M hit is half of Kerfoot’s 3.5

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Tkachuk-Kadri-Bennett
Dube-Backlund-Mangipane
Lucic-Ryan-Czarnik

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I appreciate the analysis in this thread that attempts to explain the deal from the Flames’ perspective and why they may have done the deal - money, physicality, role, potential room issues. When it veers into explanations and stats that seem to suggest it’s actually a good situation my eyes glaze over. Lucic and his contract were universally mocked here and elsewhere the past few years. I don’t see a big turn around coming regardless of his xGF. I’m not hoping for failure but not optimistic.

Absolutely.

But Neal's contract was already getting mocked and certainly would have chugged into mockery if year two looked like year one.

I don't look at Lucic rebounding offensively at all. If he flukes a couple off his hind quarters great, but his dive suggests that ship has sailed.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Nelson

Ignoring contract issues, Andrew Berkshire of Sportsnet still sees this as a win for the Oilers, which is not good for the Flames because Lucic comes with horrific contract issues - a very good read.

There really is only one "horrific contract issue", which is the NMC, which has been thoroughly discussed.

I don't buy that Neal helps the Oilers more than Lucic helps the Flames.

[Royle9]

When’s he big presser where Brad hands him the jersey and we hear how exciting of a day it is.

[Heavy Jack]

I’m holding out hope myself; some mentioned Dustin Brown who at one point had a dastardly contract himself and has put together two 50+ point seasons. Do I think Lucic puts up 50 points? Not at all, do I think he can contribute 30-40 points?? I do if we utilize him as a net front presence on the 2nd unit. Ultimately time will decide what lucic becomes for the Flames but I don’t think it’s as dire or bad as a lot of the pundits and media have made this out to be. He’s joining the 2nd best offensive team in the league last year who’s only subtraction this far was their worst offensive player with regards to payment. I’m modestly optimistic that Lucic comes in and isn’t just a tank for us but brings other elements to the team that allows him to put up a 15/15 type season while providing much needed toughness and grit.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Royle9

When’s he big presser where Brad hands him the jersey and we hear how exciting of a day it is.

They didn’t do that last summer did they? The team had several new faces but I don’t remember a press conference with Lindholm, Hanifin, Ryan, Czarnik, Neal all there to take questions. I remember Smith and Hamonic happened fairly early in the summer, and Hamilton/Frolik was mid summer as well 4 years ago.

I think Treliving has more moves to make before we see Lucic introduced. I am surprised he hasn’t done an interview with the FAN yet

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I think Treliving has more moves to make before we see Lucic introduced. I am surprised he hasn’t done an interview with the FAN yet

You mean Lucic or Treliving? Treliving was interviewed yesterday

https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/boomer-...d-free-agents/

[tvp2003]

How much time did Neal get on PP1 last year? Or did they pretty much stick with 13-19-23-28 as the four forwards? I remember him being completely useless even when gifted time on PP2, although the personnel was obviously less skilled/talented...

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

How much time did Neal get on PP1 last year? Or did they pretty much stick with 13-19-23-28 as the four forwards? I remember him being completely useless even when gifted time on PP2, although the personnel was obviously less skilled/talented...

Not much. But on either unit he was misused IMO. One of the relatively few complains I have with Peters is that he put Neal as the netfront guy instead of an off wing trigger man.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by JTech780

I agree. I think people that are saying the Oilers won this trade are basing it off of reputation. Neal has a reputation of being an elite goal scorer, which isn't the case anymore and hasn't been for sometime now, and Lucic has the reputation of being a bust with Edmonton and being nothing more than a knuckle dragger at this point, which isn't 100% accurate.

When you look closer at the numbers, the offense is much more comparable over the last 3 years, but Lucic shows to have better possession stats, be better defensively and be better physically.

Neal might bounce back and score 20 goals next season, though I doubt it, but he still will manage to drag down whatever line he is on because he is so bad defensively and really doesn't bring anything to the table.

I think this is very much the case.

Just watched Mike Johnson (?) analyse this on Jay and (not) Dan. His first comment was that Neal is a 20 goal scorer "in his sleep". I heard that and my first thought was: did you watch a single Flames game last year?

But digesting it, I get the view. It's reputation, and it's well earned - he did have 10 straight 20-goal seasons. And if you think he is still a 20 goal scorer, then you have to think this trade is a win for the Oilers.

I am going to enjoy watching the media fawn over this trade from the Oilers' perspective each time Neal scores a goal. At no time will any of them actually ask if the Oilers are any better (they won't be), nor will they consider that the Flames are a substantially better team (they will be). They will simply say: Neal scores again - great trade for the Oilers. And I will chuckle each time.

But even if he scores 25 (which he probably will if he plays all year with McDavid and on PP1), the bottom line is that the Flames are a better team after this trade, and the Flames are by far the better of the two teams.

Looking at how many goals Neal scores, as the only way to evaluate the trade, is completely missing the forest for the trees.