American Politics Thread: The Hunt for Blue November

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

This.

As a past resident of various countries in the middle east, if these countries and these people gain some security and prosperity from this brokered alliance, my goodness, the last 3.5 of Trump might have been worth it (not, obviously, for American's).

Trump has done a lot to harm the American brand internationally and it benefits his adversaries to keep him in power. I look forward to seeing more totalitarian dictatorships doing what they can to help Trump out while it suits their agenda.

Personally, I have always supported Israel on a fundamental level. That does not mean that I agree with everything they have done, but I respect their right exist and use force to maintain their existence. Having more Arab countries recognize their right to exist definitely a good thing, but it does move the line in the sand. How Shia dominated countries and larger Arab powers respond will be a huge factor. If only Iran and Saudi Arabia would get onboard, but you just know that if one does, the other would take the opposite side.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by ernie

It’s ideologues vs realists. The realist takes the wins, builds up leverage and takes some more wins down the road to effect true change. The ideologues gets mad when they don’t get everything and pack up their toys.

That's a blatant mischaracterization Progressives get pissed off and take their ball home because they see people like Biden, Schumer, etc., as being beholden to Wall Street and the corporate class, almost to the same extent that Republicans are. The Biden/Harris ticket appeals to affluent white liberals, while doing dick all for the working class.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

Dems going after the GOP voters that could be swayed is a better strategy than the extreme left that don't vote. Every GOP voter on the fence is basically worth 2 of the non-voting left (as you have to get one to cancel the GOP vote and 1 to beat it). You also don't want to sway the Dem voter on the fence over to the GOP by signing too far left.

I don't even think it's a matter of appealing to your own voters. Seems to me, it's more a matter of not providing ammunition for attack ads and segments on Tucker Carlson.

Outside of the major speeches by Biden, Obama and a couple of others (and in many cases not even then), no one who isn't already voting Democrat is watching the Democratic National Convention. The average latino voter isn't going to notice if AOC gets a secondary speaking slot and the average Bernie bro has already decided what they're doing come November.

All giving AOC a bunch of time to speak does is provide further opportunity to mine her speech for sound bites that can be used in attack ads to rile up the people who watch Fox news and convince low-information voters that the Democrats are scary, as is tradition.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by rubecube

That's a blatant mischaracterization Progressives get pissed off and take their ball home because they see people like Biden, Schumer, etc., as being beholden to Wall Street and the corporate class, almost to the same extent that Republicans are. The Biden/Harris ticket appeals to affluent white liberals, while doing dick all for the working class.

Yeah I'm not even sure Harris appeals to blacks. The VP had to be a woman of color to appease white liberals, to make them feel good and be against racism.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by rubecube

That's a blatant mischaracterization Progressives get pissed off and take their ball home because they see people like Biden, Schumer, etc., as being beholden to Wall Street and the corporate class, almost to the same extent that Republicans are. The Biden/Harris ticket appeals to affluent white liberals, while doing dick all for the working class.

THAT'S a big mischaracterization of the situation, I'd say.

Spoiler!

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Yeah I'm not even sure Harris appeals to blacks. The VP had to be a woman of color to appease white liberals, to make them feel good and be against racism.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/10/polit...ent/index.html

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by rubecube

That's a blatant mischaracterization Progressives get pissed off and take their ball home because they see people like Biden, Schumer, etc., as being beholden to Wall Street and the corporate class, almost to the same extent that Republicans are. The Biden/Harris ticket appeals to affluent white liberals, while doing dick all for the working class.

the working class vote for Trump, Bush, Reagan every now and then they might just vote for a Clinton but they will never ever vote for Bernie, conservatism is the defining feature of the working class

[oldschoolcalgary]

it all goes downhill from here...

Trumps rigs the election, causing chaos, and he doesn't step down... and IF he does, the QAnon nutjobs running the GOP will use it as "proof" that a shadow government is running the government

Nevermind the facts that Trump and his cabal are the most corrupt, morally bankrupt administration in recent memory.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...g-qanon-party/

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

the working class vote for Trump, Bush, Reagan every now and then they might just vote for a Clinton but they will never ever vote for Bernie, conservatism is the defining feature of the working class

This is so hilariously wrong. They don't vote for Democrats these days because Democrats don't cater to them, outside of a handful of unions. But they used to, and they could again, if the Dems placed a bigger emphasis on income inequality as the thing they're primarily worried about.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

it all goes downhill from here...

Trumps rigs the election, causing chaos, and he doesn't step down... and IF he does, the QAnon nutjobs running the GOP will use it as "proof" that a shadow government is running the government

Nevermind the facts that Trump and his cabal are the most corrupt, morally bankrupt administration in recent memory.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...g-qanon-party/

I'm watching the election down there with a lot of interest, because from a historical point of view, this could be fascinating and the dirtiest election campaign in history.


We talk about a rising seperatist movement in this country, could we see a splintering of the American Empire no matter who wins? Or a rise in separatist sentiments by state by political affiliation?


Maybe in the next 10 years we're going to see a major re-alignment of the North American Continent and a super shift in the first world.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

This is so hilariously wrong. They don't vote for Democrats these days because Democrats don't cater to them, outside of a handful of unions. But they used to, and they could again, if the Dems placed a bigger emphasis on income inequality as the thing they're primarily worried about.

The working class voted for Trump and Brexit and getting rid of immigrants and turning back the clock to 1965 when coloured people knew their place and a white man could let his 10 year old drive his new Pontiac on the way back from the bar, the working class may be dumb and not know what is good for them but they are consistent, they are conservative

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The working class voted for Trump and Brexit and getting rid of immigrants and turning back the clock to 1965 when coloured people knew their place and a white man could let his 10 year old drive his new Pontiac on the way back from the bar, the working class may be dumb and not know what is good for them but they are consistent, they are conservative

Painting a pretty wide brush AFC.


A lot of those working class people that aren't racist, and aren't anti-immigrant voted the way they did because they felt abandoned by the government, and Hillary Clinton ran a campaign that didn't sell them on why she should get their vote for them.


Your post feels like the reason why a Clinton didn't win, when you look down your nose at a voting block, you lose them.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Painting a pretty wide brush AFC.


A lot of those working class people that aren't racist, and aren't anti-immigrant voted the way they did because they felt abandoned by the government, and Hillary Clinton ran a campaign that didn't sell them on why she should get their vote for them.


Your post feels like the reason why a Clinton didn't win, when you look down your nose at a voting block, you lose them.

I aint saying they are racists, most all are anti immigration rather than anti immigrant, they have watched their world change since the late 60's and they hate it, they voted for Doug Ford and Farage, Trump and co because they want the world they imagined they grew up in to come back

[CaptainCrunch]

turning back the clock to 1965 when coloured people knew their place and a white man

How is that not saying their racists?

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I'm watching the election down there with a lot of interest, because from a historical point of view, this could be fascinating and the dirtiest election campaign in history.


We talk about a rising seperatist movement in this country, could we see a splintering of the American Empire no matter who wins? Or a rise in separatist sentiments by state by political affiliation?


Maybe in the next 10 years we're going to see a major re-alignment of the North American Continent and a super shift in the first world.

its frustrating to see.

but when facts are ignored in favor of 'alternative facts', what's the recourse?

Even if there was a mea culpa from Trump himself, or a moral epiphany from Rupert Murdoch turning Fox News back into an actual new outlet, neither would even matter as the GOP fringe would attribute Trump's mea culpa as coerced and would move from Fox to OAN or Infowars for their 'news' source.

I honestly don't think that portion of the republic will EVER come back to reality.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

This.

As a past resident of various countries in the middle east, if these countries and these people gain some security and prosperity from this brokered alliance, my goodness, the last 3.5 of Trump might have been worth it (not, obviously, for American's).

You're making the assumption that Trump is responsible for this alliance, which it is obvious he is not. Trump has done everything he can to provide greater imbalance in the Middle East. The Russians have been provided superiority in Syria. Turkey has been given full autonomy over northern Iraq because of Trump ignoring alliances in the region. Iran has become the greatest threat in the region and recognized as the power that is pulling the most strings. This is the Arab (Sunni) countries making a deal with their greatest enemy to keep Iran (Shia) in check. No different than the WWII allies getting in bet with the Soviets to defeat the Germans. This alliance will hold only so long as Iran is a threat. Once the Shia threat has reduced, this alliance will crumble and Israel will become an enemy once again. Iran is the driver for this alliance, not anything Trump has done. But Trump will happily accept the credit for this, just like he does on everything else he is given credit for and he has nothing to do with.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

its frustrating to see.

but when facts are ignored in favor of 'alternative facts', what's the recourse?

Even if there was a mea culpa from Trump himself, or a moral epiphany from Rupert Murdoch turning Fox News back into an actual new outlet, neither would even matter as the GOP fringe would attribute Trump's mea culpa as coerced and would move from Fox to OAN or Infowars for their 'news' source.

I honestly don't think that portion of the republic will EVER come back to reality.

I think all of news media is in major need of reform. I don't watch fox news because I know what it is and despise it. But at the same time whether I turn to CBS or ABC or CNN or others, its news with spin, the media has become far too influential and powerful and they know it and take advantage of it.


News services don't report the news as much as they shape the news and slant the news.


I almost miss the days when channel 2 had the flow of text news.



I think there's a almost lack of critical thinking as our lives have become more rushed as well. We want people to almost tell us what to think.

[CaptainCrunch]

BTW what's happening with the USPS and reports of machines and boxes being removed and destroyed has to be criminal.



I'm almost hoping that there's a military takeover before the election.



Its a unbelievable world that we live in and the structural damage to the United States is almost beyond belief.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Painting a pretty wide brush AFC.


A lot of those working class people that aren't racist, and aren't anti-immigrant voted the way they did because they felt abandoned by the government, and Hillary Clinton ran a campaign that didn't sell them on why she should get their vote for them.


Your post feels like the reason why a Clinton didn't win, when you look down your nose at a voting block, you lose them.

I feel like I get to add a voice here, because outside of my exact city limits, everything around the Pittsburgh area (including the area where I spend 5 days/week at work) is very working class and very red.

They don't say the quiet parts out loud all the time, but they absolutely blame immigrants (legal and otherwise, so long as they're brown) for their troubles, they're infuriated at the idea of raising taxes (even on the very, very rich: they earned it! they worked hard for it! why do you hate success?), and a great many of them hate unions nowadays.

Clinton's platform was dramatically better for them long-term, included training in jobs that would continue into the future, would include a higher minimum wage, more access to healthcare, etc, etc, etc. It wasn't perfect, of course, no platform is, and she definitely didn't do an excellent job of getting the message across, but the platform had an actual plan of how to help these people, with real, tangible goals to work toward.

Trump lied to them that coal was coming back, he assured them that they were correct that brown people were the cause of their problems. He promised their guns were safe and that he'd return the US to a place they recognized: whiter, straighter, with women put back in their place.

Do you honestly think that outside of a handful, most working class Trump voters actually looked at his/the GOP's platform and thought it would help them? Or do you think they just decided to follow someone who blew smoke up their asses and told them he'd make everything the way it used to be! Just like they remembered in the Good Old Days (that were only good if you were straight, white, male and Christian)!

I know there were a ton of articles about this afterward, but the biggest factor for especially rust-belt Trump voters was fear: fear of progress, fear of immigrants, fear of technology, etc. They're absolutely terrified of the world as it is now, and they're even more terrified that it's going to continue changing. They feel like they're losing their stranglehold on power and influence, they don't like that people who look and sound different from them have seats at the table now.

Trump looks down his nose at them just as much, if not more. He gave them no more than empty platitudes about how he would make life better for them, with zero actual plans of how he was going to do that. But he says the racist, sexist, illegal parts out loud, and his voters either like him because of that, or they just care so little about other human beings that they love him anyway.

“I voted for him, and he’s the one who’s doing this,” Minton told Mazzei. “I thought he was going to do good things. He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.”

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-voter-florida


The cruelty from Trump against people they see as "other" is part of the appeal. They may not all be clamoring to join the KKK, to be sure, but they decided that open racism was totally fine from a guy they were going to vote as President of the United States.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

How is that not saying their racists?

Because its magic thinking, they want manufacturing back, domestic cars, but they still love Chinese TV's and Honda's reliability, they dont hate immigrants they just have a sense that they are no longer important and they dont like it

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

I feel like I get to add a voice here, because outside of my exact city limits, everything around the Pittsburgh area (including the area where I spend 5 days/week at work) is very working class and very red.

They don't say the quiet parts out loud all the time, but they absolutely blame immigrants (legal and otherwise, so long as they're brown) for their troubles, they're infuriated at the idea of raising taxes (even on the very, very rich: they earned it! they worked hard for it! why do you hate success?), and a great many of them hate unions nowadays.

Clinton's platform was dramatically better for them long-term, included training in jobs that would continue into the future, would include a higher minimum wage, more access to healthcare, etc, etc, etc. It wasn't perfect, of course, no platform is, and she definitely didn't do an excellent job of getting the message across, but the platform had an actual plan of how to help these people, with real, tangible goals to work toward.

Trump lied to them that coal was coming back, he assured them that they were correct that brown people were the cause of their problems. He promised their guns were safe and that he'd return the US to a place they recognized: whiter, straighter, with women put back in their place.

Do you honestly think that outside of a handful, most working class Trump voters actually looked at his/the GOP's platform and thought it would help them? Or do you think they just decided to follow someone who blew smoke up their asses and told them he'd make everything the way it used to be! Just like they remembered in the Good Old Days (that were only good if you were straight, white, male and Christian)!

I know there were a ton of articles about this afterward, but the biggest factor for especially rust-belt Trump voters was fear: fear of progress, fear of immigrants, fear of technology, etc. They're absolutely terrified of the world as it is now, and they're even more terrified that it's going to continue changing. They feel like they're losing their stranglehold on power and influence, they don't like that people who look and sound different from them have seats at the table now.

Trump looks down his nose at them just as much, if not more. He gave them no more than empty platitudes about how he would make life better for them, with zero actual plans of how he was going to do that. But he says the racist, sexist, illegal parts out loud, and his voters either like him because of that, or they just care so little about other human beings that they love him anyway.



https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...-voter-florida


The cruelty from Trump against people they see as "other" is part of the appeal. They may not all be clamoring to join the KKK, to be sure, but they decided that open racism was totally fine from a guy they were going to vote as President of the United States.

Working class white america doesnt care about coal mining anymore than the Kippers that voted for Brexit care about the fishing industry but its symbolic of an age they want to go back to and shysty right wing scum bags can and will harness that anger every chance they get