Mclean's - Do atheists care less?

[calgaryrocks]

Originally Posted by T@T

Just wondering!

If God produced the big bang and made the universe, who made God?

who knows? (ps...no one) but that was partially the point. neither side knows. we can come up with theories or whatever but there is no way of knowing. although, i will say that science does a good job of trying to figure out how things happened, that is one thing it can't find out. its not-understandable.
in my opinion, it is possible that God exists outside of our time (thus the alpha and omega etc) and is just there, and creates the universe with rules like 'time' and 'space' as we understand it. I care more about why than how. science looks at how, religion looks at why. they are looking at two different questions. why may be tougher to answer, but it may be more important.

[SebC]

LOL at the Hitler argument. God only killed somewhere between 2 million and 25 million. God is perfect and even though He is benevolent, onmniscient, and omnipotent, He did nothing to stop Hilter, because then we might not appreciate that we're not Jews in 1944 or something like that. Hitler is evil and God is perfect. Really?

[calgaryrocks]

Originally Posted by SebC

LOL at the Hitler argument. God only killed somewhere between 2 million and 25 million. God is perfect and even though He is benevolent, onmniscient, and omnipotent, He did nothing to stop Hilter, because then we might not appreciate that we're not Jews in 1944 or something like that. Hitler is evil and God is perfect. Really?

but what is perfect? what we decide is perfect? if we are flawed and not perfect, how can we decide what is? or judge whether something is perfect? A God or a person can only be perfect in our opinion.
the problems with what you are saying about God stopping Hitler are:

1. where would he draw the line, should he kill anyone that kills someone, or anyone that has a judgemental thought? (we would all die pretty quick). when should have he stopped Hitler? when is it right for God to step in and stop free-will? sure it was horrible what happened, but it did bring people together and probably made the world realize the bad that can happen

2. linked to what i said above, how do we know what God's plans are, or how he can use things. if God is all-knowing etc, why do we think we can fully understand him or predict him?

[photon]

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

who knows? (ps...no one)

But if god gets the special status of being un-created then that's just special pleading. You could equally say that the universe exists in a mirror image backwards through time, so all time and space is accounted for, no creator needed.

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

but that was partially the point. neither side knows. we can come up with theories or whatever but there is no way of knowing.

Well the thing about theories is they have explanatory power, they describe the how of things.. theories aren't just stabs in the dark, they're coherent things that describe what's observed. Big bang theory describes the history of the universe very accurately, and predicts lots of observations that were subsequently confirmed. That means while the theory might not be complete, it's closer to reality than a wild guess.

Or put another way, if you see a hoofprint in your yard, it could have been created by a horse, a zebra, or a unicorn. You have no way of knowing, but you can definitely assign probabilities to each possibility and depending on the circumstances be quite confident in your choice.

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

but what is perfect? what we decide is perfect? if we are flawed and not perfect, how can we decide what is? or judge whether something is perfect? A God or a person can only be perfect in our opinion.

I don't think it requires perfection in order to recognize perfection. Mathematical proofs are perfect within their context but are created by imperfect people. One could create and measure a perfect sphere. A perfect set of morals and values would stand up to infinite scrutiny and give a clear correct answer to every dilemma.

Either a creator decided to a) impart that knowledge or b) let us figure it out for ourselves or c) made it forever unknowable. If it's a) then we can decide because it was given to us to know and judge. If it's b) then we can judge based on what we know at the time, and through that we develop and improve. If it's c), well that's just mean an silly and ultimately meaningless.

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

the problems with what you are saying about God stopping Hitler are:

1. where would he draw the line, should he kill anyone that kills someone, or anyone that has a judgemental thought? (we would all die pretty quick). when should have he stopped Hitler? when is it right for God to step in and stop free-will? sure it was horrible what happened, but it did bring people together and probably made the world realize the bad that can happen

So this raises a couple of questions.. first of all why does the free will argument always fall on the side of evil? God can't stop Hitler for good because to do so would violate free-will, but Hitler is free to violate others' free-will to advance evil?

If you were in a room with a mother and a child and the mother was going to put the child in a microwave, you can't stand aside and say you can't interfere with someone else's free will, that's immoral. The mother is violating the child's free-will already.. someone's free will is going to be interfered with, why does it have to be the evil that's progressed?

The other question is is there free will in heaven? If so, what stops rape and murder and such in heaven? If not, why go through all of this trouble to create a set of robots in eternity in heaven?

Originally Posted by calgaryrocks

2. linked to what i said above, how do we know what God's plans are, or how he can use things. if God is all-knowing etc, why do we think we can fully understand him or predict him?

Well an inscrutable god with unknowable goals and undefinable properties would certainly explain the lack of explanation about many things, but I don't think that's the god most people believe in, and those that do believe in that kind of god I don't think would interact much of that god in the way of a religion...

[FireFly]

I don't know if what I'm about to say has been said, but I'll say it anyway!

There is an organization out there called Cardus. Cardus' main research goals are to determine how to get the 4th sector? more active; the 4th sector being volunteers and those who give to charitable organizations.

Now, they've studied what are the main factors in determining a person's liklihood to donate and/or volunteer their time. Religion (of all sects) was one of the leading causes. Also affecting it was whether or not a person's parents gave them that example.

Do athiests care? Maybe and maybe not. Regardless, they need to get out there and volunteer their time or money and show their children that this is a positive thing to do because without volunteers there will be a HUGE gap in supply/demad for this type of thing in the coming years.

Oh, and when I say volunteer, I don't mean aid organizations specifically, they researched all types of volunteerism including coaching children's sports and so on.

Anyway, carry on with your regularly scheduled religious debate please.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by SebC

LOL at the Hitler argument. God only killed somewhere between 2 million and 25 million. God is perfect and even though He is benevolent, onmniscient, and omnipotent, He did nothing to stop Hilter, because then we might not appreciate that we're not Jews in 1944 or something like that. Hitler is evil and God is perfect. Really?

Christians should be happy knowing there's no chance their God killed this many people, but they also wont like the reason why.

Fact is Noah's Flood never happened. just another fairy tale!

[Smelly Fred]

Originally Posted by T@T

Just wondering!

If God produced the big bang and made the universe, who made God?

I know that was an attempt at humour but it was mind numbingly dumb. The writer has no grasp of the attributes of God. This question is the equivalent of that if God is so powerful could he make a rock so big he couldn't lift? then the writer takes another swig of beer, farts and guffaws to themselves content in their seemingly bear trap logic.

Think about infinity for a while T@T, the mystery of God is wrapped in something akin to that concept. Also think of a place where there is no such thing as time because prior to the origins of the cosmos there was no such invention as time. Chew on those two concepts for a while and it should get the taste of last night's beer from your mouth.

As for the issue of Atheist charities no writer can produce a single entity. It shows that atheism as a belief is totally irrelevant to people in need and suffering. It's very definition is that of negativity and what they do not believe in. It is a uselss concept for society and will never prevail no matter how radical it becomes. The fundie prophets of new age atheism in their scorched earth campaign against all forms of theism will ultimately fail and they will drift into distant memory because basically the majority of people do not embrace fundamentalists of any shape or description. Intolerance is not a value that Canadians embrace and the New Atheist leaders promote intolerance and division. In their own way they are the equivalent of a mad mullah only their followers have not yet taken violent action. The only reason for this is that they are completely disorganised and can only congregate on forums such as this.

I sit back and await the torrent of replies to this. Bring it on fellas!

[Smelly Fred]

Originally Posted by SebC

LOL at the Hitler argument. God only killed somewhere between 2 million and 25 million. God is perfect and even though He is benevolent, onmniscient, and omnipotent, He did nothing to stop Hilter, because then we might not appreciate that we're not Jews in 1944 or something like that. Hitler is evil and God is perfect. Really?

So according to the logic you have just shown SebC that if we blame God and hold him responsible for all the evil in the world then conversly we must also give him praise and credit for all the good? Correct?
That is a whole lot of good and the balance would tip for the good not the bad. Because we know that in our world that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction so not only logic but our phyisical laws state it must be as such.

I don't agree with your supposition but several other posters have commented on this quite elequently and I won't belabour the point.

[photon]

Fail rant is fail.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

Intolerance is not a value that Canadians embrace and the New Atheist leaders promote intolerance and division.

You may have just touched on the single most important reason for declining Church participation in the majority of the "west". I'd say that intolerance and a value system which is decades out of date is the reason people are turning to atheism.

[troutman]

As for the issue of Atheist charities no writer can produce a single entity. It shows that atheism as a belief is totally irrelevant to people in need and suffering. It's very definition is that of negativity and what they do not believe in. It is a uselss concept for society and will never prevail no matter how radical it becomes.

Since you wanted me to "do my own googling", it took about 10 seconds to find all this:

https://secure.americanhumanist.org/...e.aspx?pid=288

Humanist Charities of the American Humanist Association (AHA) expresses its deep sorrow for the people affected by the massive devastation caused by the earthquake in Haiti. To ensure rapid and effective response to this tragedy, Humanist Charities has established the Haiti Earthquake Relief Fund to support the efforts of humanist and Harvard biologist Sebastian Velez, with the help of several Dominican NGOs, to distribute food and supplies to the people of Haiti.

http://www.humanistcharities.org/

Humanist Charities is accepting donations to support the people of Chile after an 8.8-magnitude earthquake struck on February 27 and caused serious damage in several areas of the country. Humanist Charities will make a donation on your behalf to Doctors Without Borders, a medical-humanitarian organization with a team of doctors, nurses, and volunteers already on the ground.

http://www.secularstudents.org/node/2968

Many of us want to reach out to help those who are suffering in the wake of this disaster. But as secularists, we are wary of those organizations that would include proselytization in their relief efforts.

http://foundationbeyondbelief.org/

A unique secular charity whose humanist and atheist members support ten outstanding organizations per quarter.

http://givingaid.richarddawkins.net/

Spurred by the horrific suffering in Haiti, the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science (RDFRS) has joined forces with 20 other freethought groups or associates, to collect donations to non-religious relief organizations. Those participating are Atheist Alliance International, Atheists Helping the Homeless, Atheists United, The British Humanist Association, Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain, Freedom From Religion Foundation, The International Humanist and Ethical Union, James Randi Educational Foundation, Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers, New Humanist Magazine, Pharyngula, Rationalist Association, Rationalist International, Reasonable New York, The Reason Project, The Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science, Secular Student Alliance, Skeptics in the Pub, The Skeptic Magazine, The Skeptics Society and Unreasonable Faith.

http://www.squidoo.com/Atheist-Charities

It's often said that there are no atheist charities. This stems from a common misconception - that atheists are not giving and care nothing for their fellow man. But the truth is that atheists have just as much empathy as anyone else. As many atheists see it, there's no one to help our fellow human beings except ourselves.

In fact, there are many atheist charities and charities founded by atheists. Some of them avoid using the word atheist to avoid having the stigma attached to it affecting the operation of their charity. Others cautiously use a related term - humanist - in the charity's name. Fortunately, there has been more dialogue going on and it has become somewhat less acceptable to bash anything and everything associated with atheism so a few brave groups have used the word atheist in the names of their charities.

If you'd like to learn more about some of these atheist and humanist charities, read on.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

I sit back and await the torrent of replies to this. Bring it on fellas!

Ha ha.

[Smelly Fred]

Troutman

A humanist is not neccesarily an atheist. There are Christian humanists. Erasmus was a famous theistic humanist of the Renaissance. The Humanist Manifesto written in 1933 was by self declared "religous humanists"
Even a secular humanist is not neccesarily an atheist.
Straw clutching is such a wonderfyl pastime.
La La La La La (sung in a pious monk like voice)
It's so wonderful to be me.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

Troutman

A humanist is not neccesarily an atheist. There are Christian humanists. Erasmus was a famous theistic humanist of the Renaissance. The Humanist Manifesto written in 1933 was by self declared "religous humanists"
Even a secular humanist is not neccesarily an atheist.
Straw clutching is such a wonderfyl pastime.
La La La La La (sung in a pious monk like voice)
It's so wonderful to be me.

True, I knew you would say that. Read the last link.

You move the goal posts more than Queens students at Homecoming.

[Smelly Fred]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

You may have just touched on the single most important reason for declining Church participation in the majority of the "west". I'd say that intolerance and a value system which is decades out of date is the reason people are turning to atheism.

CaramonLS
Atheism is estimated to affect 2.5% of the world population. It is a tiny insignificant little speck on the elephants backside and as such carries precious little clout except for blogs and forums where atheists attempt to punch above their collective weight. Theism has absolutely nothing to worry about as far as atheism is concerned. Africa, Asia and South America are having huge revivals of Christianity. Chinese missionaries now come to nations like Sweden which they feel is a nation in spiritual darkness. I wouldn't proclaim your victory just yet mo chara.

[Smelly Fred]

Originally Posted by troutman

True, I knew you would say that.

You knew I would sing in a monk like voice even before I did? Wow! You are a prophet and as such must believe in the supernatural so the gig is up. You have been outed as a closet theist.

[Smelly Fred]

IK would like to help the poor unenlightened athists here a helping hand. First for those of you too young to know go look up the name Anthony Flew. He was one of the world's leading atheists in his day. He debated people like William Lane Craig defending the position of atheism.
Then go read his book There IS A God : How the world's most notorious atheist changed his mind.

Then there is another famous atheist who converted. His name was C.S. Lewis. Read Mere Christianity to see one of the great Christian apologists at work. I think you will find their arguments compelling.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

I think you will find their arguments compelling.

No, I didn't. Both tried different versions of the "God is necessary" theme, but neither is particularly convincing. God got squeezed out of the gaps a long time ago.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Smelly Fred

CaramonLS
Theism has absolutely nothing to worry about as far as atheism is concerned.

I like this one. Like there is a "Theist vs. Atheist" battle being waged.
As though believers are a big old community on one side against the nonbelievers.

Right now some believer is killing another believer for not believing exactly the same version of a supernatural tale, and my guess is you believe both of them are going to hell anyway, because they don't believe in your supernatural tale.

Oddly enough, probably the biggest threat to all of us isn't atheism, but the rivalry between one group of people worship a Jew that was born ~2000 years ago and another group of people who worship some guy who they believe was a messenger for the Master of the Universe about 1400 years ago. The only thing in common is that they both have historically hated Jews, which is really weird.

[Smelly Fred]

Here is part of the William Lane Craig - Anthony Flew debate



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maoGItxwTTA