Raptors 2009 offseason thread

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

I don't think it's underrating these deals, JF. I think you're greatly overrating them. They still can't rebound. I would be willing to make a friendly wager that they don't win 45 games.

I think they make the playoffs this year, but only because of the lack of talent in the East otherwise.

My guess is a 40-42 finish and an 8th seed, swept by Cleveland in the first round.

I think you are just a cheezed off Cavs fan. They got beat by the Magic who have improved and you see no hope of beating them yet again. Thus your inability to give BC his due credit. A bitter delusioned Cavs fan version of the Raptors offseason isn't worth much IMO.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

I think you are just a cheezed off Cavs fan. They got beat by the Magic who have improved and you see no hope of beating them yet again. Thus your inability to give BC his due credit. A bitter delusioned Cavs fan version of the Raptors offseason isn't worth much IMO.

Do you have something to base that on? Or are you just being unpleasant?

You seem rather condescending to posters on CP that disagree with you and whatever echo-chamber you pull this haughty expertise from.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Do you have something to base that on? Or are you just being unpleasant?

You seem rather condescending to posters on CP that disagree with you and whatever echo-chamber you pull this haughty expertise from.

See post 89. He reminds me of the atypical Canuck fans appearance on FOI.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

See post 89. He reminds me of the atypical Canuck fans appearance on FOI.

Touche.

I agree with malcolm though, this team is not a contender.

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I'll take that bet. A $10.00 donation to CP. I think they will win 45 games or more.

Done.

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

I think you are just a cheezed off Cavs fan. They got beat by the Magic who have improved and you see no hope of beating them yet again. Thus your inability to give BC his due credit. A bitter delusioned Cavs fan version of the Raptors offseason isn't worth much IMO.

I'm not 'cheesed' off at all. The Cavs blew it against the Magic. They were outcoached and outplayed, and had matchup problems against the Magic pick and roll, as well as no answer for Howard.

The Magic have NOT improved. Where the hell do you get that from. Their whole advantage came from the fact that they presented matchup problems with almost every team in the league when they were able to play Turkoglu, Pietrus and Lewis at the same time. Now that they've lost Turkoglu, they've gone back to playing players at traditional positions. Instead of just paying Turkoglu, they gave the money to Brandon Bass and Marcin Gortat. Good luck with that, Orlando. They took a good thing and messed with it, mark my words they'll be worse than last season.

Yeah, I'm a Cavs fan. Yeah, I hate the Raptors and always have. But first and foremost I'm a basketball fan, and it doesn't take a genius to see that the Raptors are not a contender. To be honest, I hate the Shaq deal, I think Anthony Parker and Jamario Moon are useless (no, not because they're ex-Raptors), and I think the Cavs have taken a significant step backwards this offseason. I'd be pleasantly surprised if they won the Conference, but then again, they have LeBron so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not afraid to give credit where credit is due, Toronto has made the most drastic improvements in the Eastern Conference this offseason. Unfortunately, it only takes them from a 13th place team to an 8th place team in my mind. Do you really think Belinelli is going to be a factor? Do you think Reggie Evans is gonna hop in a time machine and head back to 2006?

Yes, they've improved. Yes, Colangelo has done a good job. No, they're not a contending team. No, they can't play defense or rebound. They were 25-40 under Triano last season. That translates to 32 wins over a full season. With the players they added, I think a 9-12 win increase to 41-44 total wins is reasonable, and I doubt many other teams will be making that much of a turnaround.

[malcolmk14]

I guess all I'm saying is temper your expectations a bit. This team has a long way to go to be a 4/5 seed like you're suggesting.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

I guess all I'm saying is temper your expectations a bit. This team has a long way to go to be a 4/5 seed like you're suggesting.

I don't see any reason to. None of the teams beyond the top three are anything special. Same old story in the East. When nobody noticed the Raps in the weak East they hit 47 wins. The year following I guess Sam would say the shats weren't fallen and they still won 41.

So it was basically Bosh and "a bunch of inconsitent dufii" as I heard one reporter describe it for those two seasons. Personally I think it was actually Bosh , and a pretty deep team that had a lot of offense but zilch else.

Now BC has them with a better starting lineup. Hedo alone provides that. Two spot improved as well. Bench vastly improved. Coaching staff adds a good guy in Iavaroni. Heck they did those two decent years with Smitch who wasn't exactly Mr X and O.

Nope they are much improved on paper and right back to where they were in those two seasons. Just like the other four teams that will make the playoffs they need to finish fourth or fifth. They have enough talent and not even factoring in all the maybe's(player improvement, coaching, chemistry ete etc.) it will likely just come down to injuries.

No reason they can't compete with other teams that also have numerous holes in their own lineups.

[Gozer]

Johnny, who would you consider to be the Raptors best defensive starter?

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Johnny, who would you consider to be the Raptors best defensive starter?

They don't have a superior one on one defender. Nor did they when they won 47 games and finished first in the Atlantic division. They had a mediocre at best defense and a good offense. Not unlike the vast majority of teams in the East. Heck even Detroit is moving to a more offensive setup this year. Putting a good defensive team on the floor ain't easy in the NBA. There are a ton of me first players and the league is riddled with crappy defensive teams.

It requires committment from one of your star players like a Tim Duncan for example. A top notch two way player. Something Bosh could easily do a better job of though he ain't never going be in Duncan's league defensively. Bargnani improved in this area a lot last year.

The worst thing is the likes of Kapono were steppin in off the bench. Turnover machines and lousy d combined.

They don't need to be a defensive powerhouse. There a very, very few teams in that category in the NBA. They just need to actually play some. I watched a ton of NBA games last year and I can tell you as I'm sure any BB fan knows there wasn't a heck of a lot of defense played in the hardly any of them. It's a scorer's league and that's who gets the dough.

What you need is a team committment starting at the top. Bosh has to quit doing the wimp act. When he plays inspired he can indeed play decent defense. He has proved that at times with the Raps and at the OLY's.

That's why they bring in Iavaroni to establish a defensive system which is something Smitch never had. Triano and he both have an actual training camp to get their systems in place which should help a lot this season. Plus they bring in a whole bench full of players who will give them solid defense. Wright, Evans, Jack, Rasho etc. all going to give them good minutes.

Their offense is going to be good. Their defense just needs to not suck beyond belief.

Does that make them conference winners--NO. But in the the hunt for the 4/5? Yep. Because the rest of the teams in that category all have as big as weaknesses as the Raps.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

They don't have a superior one on one defender.

Nor a superior shotblocker.
Nor a superior rebounder.
Nor a superior help defender.

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

Nor did they when they won 47 games and finished first in the Atlantic division

I think Garbo was underrated defensivly, Rasho was average, Delfino was good, Ford was a solid help defender...none of those are true about our current starters...But I agree with the point broadly.

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

They had a mediocre at best defense and a good offense. Not unlike the vast majority of teams in the East.

Not sure if I agree with that. How many playoff teams from last season were less than mediocre on defense? Looking them over, I see none. Atlanta maybe? At least no teams that were worse defensively than I think the Raps will be this year.

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

Putting a good defensive team on the floor ain't easy in the NBA. There are a ton of me first players and the league is riddled with crappy defensive teams.

Sure, teams that play defense make the playoffs. Teams that don't, don't.

Guess which column the Raps are in.

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

It requires committment from one of your star players like a Tim Duncan for example. A top notch two way player. Something Bosh could easily do a better job of though he ain't never going be in Duncan's league defensively. Bargnani improved in this area a lot last year.

I concede that if we had an excellent man and help defender we'd be better defensively.

We don't.

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

They don't need to be a defensive powerhouse. There a very, very few teams in that category in the NBA. They just need to actually play some. I watched a ton of NBA games last year and I can tell you as I'm sure any BB fan knows there wasn't a heck of a lot of defense played in the hardly any of them.

Hardly any defense in any NBA games?
I categorically disagree with that.

Good defensive teams force bad shots and rebound. The Raps do neither.

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

Their offense is going to be good. Their defense just needs to not suck beyond belief.

Does that make them conference winners--NO. But in the the hunt for the 4/5? Yep. Because the rest of the teams in that category all have as big as weaknesses as the Raps.

This is where your premise falls apart. Even if I accept your assertion that few teams consistently play well defensively and the league is driven by offense, what are opposing team's weaknesses that the Raps - who don't rebound and lack athleticism - are going to exploit?

[Gozer]

Part of my negativity comes from believing that last year we were in good shape with the addition of a solid shotblocker rebounder and defender in Jermaine.

Our defense still looked terrible and I don't blame Jermaine for that - I blame the fact that no one else on the team can defend their man without help. Now we unload Jermaine (which I'm ok with because his style/decision making were killing our offense) and just give up on defense?

Either Triano can bust out his quick-collapsing defense and we can hope teams can't make their shats all year or Triano puts in a more aggressive man defense and we can surrender layup after layup.

Either way, we won't rebound or fast break worth a damn and we fans can all scream at Bargs or Bosh or whoever else is in a cold spell from 15ft that results in the score slipping away.

[Gozer]

What other forum do you post at Johnny?

I suspect you're going to give me a "why bother with this guy" kind of response, which I wouldn't begrudge you for, but I actually want to know how optimistic Raps fans think this team is going to work - because I can't even grasp it.

I used to post on Hoopsworld until they deleted everything and set up the abortion of a messageboard they have now.

[killer_carlson]

didn't Hedo improve his defensive game to come third in voting for defensive player of the year?

[moon]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

didn't Hedo improve his defensive game to come third in voting for defensive player of the year?

When?

Last year he got a 3rd place vote that had him in about a tie for 15th but I don't think he ever has finished third.

The voters would have to be on crack to have him finish anything close to that high. The 3rd place vote he got last year is a joke on its own.

[Gozer]

Rumour!: Amir Johnson for Delfino (S&T) + Ukic

[octothorp]

I don't know a lot about Johnson, but seems like he's got a pretty good compete level and good athleticism, for a guy in Delfino that likely wasn't going to be on the Raps anyway and a guard who was dropping like a stone down the depth chart. Too bad for Johnson though; he'd have a chance at starting for the Bucks, but on the Raps, he'll be in a fight with Evans even for backup PF.

[Gozer]

the Raptors have agreed in principal on a sign-and-trade deal that will send swingman Carlos Delfino and guard Roko Ukic to the Milwaukee Bucks for power forward Amir Johnson and guard Sonny Weems.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4404309

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Gozer

the Raptors have agreed in principal on a sign-and-trade deal that will send swingman Carlos Delfino and guard Roko Ukic to the Milwaukee Bucks for power forward Amir Johnson and guard Sonny Weems.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4404309

I don't know anything about the MIL players, but Delfino wasn't going to sign here anyway, and Ukic as much as I liked him, has some major flaws to work out and he wasn't going to develop a pinch on this years' squad. If anything, it helps Ukic get some more playing time, which is nice to see because by all accounts he works hard.

[Monkey_Fracas]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

Done.




The Magic have NOT improved. Where the hell do you get that from. Their whole advantage came from the fact that they presented matchup problems with almost every team in the league when they were able to play Turkoglu, Pietrus and Lewis at the same time. Now that they've lost Turkoglu, they've gone back to playing players at traditional positions. Instead of just paying Turkoglu, they gave the money to Brandon Bass and Marcin Gortat. Good luck with that, Orlando. They took a good thing and messed with it, mark my words they'll be worse than last season.

Next time cite the author who you plagarize word for word. That is copy and pasted off of a Bill Simmons' article.

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by Monkey_Fracas

Next time cite the author who you plagarize word for word. That is copy and pasted off of a Bill Simmons' article.

No, it isn't.

Pretty close though.