Israel and Lebanon now fighting

[White Doors]

How do they know which are civilians and which are terrorists anyways? it's not like they wear uniforms.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Lucky boy

So because someone flew over your house and dropped a brochure onto your front lawn, it is now a justified target? Are you saying that if a bunch of Quebecers captured an American soldier, you would gladly move out of your house and leave all your possesions and start walking to Edmonton if you found a leaflet on your porch stating that a possible quebecer was living in your area?

I am not too sure how citizins are supposed to know that airports, highways, and powerplants are Hezbollah strongholds.

In my opinion, I find the leaflets insulting. The whole, "I warned I was going to bomb, it is your fault you died" mentality is just not right to me.

The irony of the whole thing is that you have one side who is trying as hard as possible to hit any target(civilian or not) and is doing a really poor job at it, and you have the other side who is trying not to hit any civilians and they also are doing a really poor job at it.

No, you have one side saying they are not trying to hit civialian targets. There is a big difference between saying something, and actually doing it!

And of course the people on this site wouldn't leave their homes. They have a diferent opinion when you place similar constraints in them. Then it's a different story and requires different options.

Just like when they **** and moan about someone operating in civilian areas, or having bases in civilian areas. These clownshoes should come on down to America and see where they position their bases and what is around those. MacDill was right in the heart of Tampa bay. Luke AFB and Williams Gateway here in Phoenix are both surrounded by residential communities. The military industrial complex is right in the heart of Mesa, Tempe, Phoenix, Avondale and Glendale. These would be rich targets and they are embedded in high density population areas of civilians. Both sides use this strategy to protect their assets.

It just makes me shake my head when I see people say how one side is doing something that the other is not. It just proves how uniformed they are, and how easily sucked in by the media they are. After all, this whole thing was started by the kidnapping of a soldier, not the assassination and imprisonment of the state representives of the Palestinians. The noise in the media makes it appear to be a simplistic one sided issue.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Lucky boy

So because someone flew over your house and dropped a brochure onto your front lawn, it is now a justified target? Are you saying that if a bunch of Quebecers captured an American soldier, you would gladly move out of your house and leave all your possesions and start walking to Edmonton if you found a leaflet on your porch stating that a possible quebecer was living in your area? "

Not gladly, but if I was sure that a military action was going to be taken in my area, yes, I would leave - like hundreds are leaving Haifa to go to Tel-Aviv. The alternative is bomb shelters - I've spent a night in one, don't plan on doing it again.

I am not too sure how citizins are supposed to know that airports, highways, and powerplants are Hezbollah strongholds.

How many people are living on runways, highways and within 100 metres of a powerplant?

The people know where Hezbolah congrigates - the organization apperently does a lot of 'social work' in Southern Lebanon.

In my opinion, I find the leaflets insulting. The whole, "I warned I was going to bomb, it is your fault you died" mentality is just not right to me.

It is not a matter of fault or reasoning - but if an airstrike is going to happen then there are two ways to go about it - don't tell anyone or tell everyone. If someone is going to hit you in the face and they tell you when and where, and you are sure they will do it are you not going to duck?

[Lucky boy]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

If someone is going to hit you in the face and they tell you when and where, and you are sure they will do it are you not going to duck?

I would duck, but warning me still doesn't justify their action.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

And of course the people on this site wouldn't leave their homes. They have a diferent opinion when you place similar constraints in them. Then it's a different story and requires different options.

If I knew that the US was going to bomb Calgary, you can be sure that I wouldn't be anywhere close to the city... and I"m sure that there would be MANY others who would be fleeing too.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Just like when they **** and moan about someone operating in civilian areas, or having bases in civilian areas. These clownshoes should come on down to America and see where they position their bases and what is around those. MacDill was right in the heart of Tampa bay. Luke AFB and Williams Gateway here in Phoenix are both surrounded by residential communities. The military industrial complex is right in the heart of Mesa, Tempe, Phoenix, Avondale and Glendale. These would be rich targets and they are embedded in high density population areas of civilians. Both sides use this strategy to protect their assets.

There is a BIG BIG BIG difference between having a base in a civilian area, and using a unit in a duplex. Your comparison is so out of whack it's funny.

The comparison I would make would be like if some country wanted to go after the Hells Angels. Sure they have a clubhouse somewhere, but it's usually right in the middle of a neighborhood. There usually isn't much of a difference between that building and most of the other civilian buildings around it. In addition, the Hells Angels have a heck of a lot of other "hangouts" than just their clubhouse. How are you supposed to pick them out from the rest of the houses? The leaflets serve as notice that they are going to try - get out.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

It just makes me shake my head when I see people say how one side is doing something that the other is not. It just proves how uniformed they are, and how easily sucked in by the media they are. After all, this whole thing was started by the kidnapping of a soldier, not the assassination and imprisonment of the state representives of the Palestinians. The noise in the media makes it appear to be a simplistic one sided issue.

It is simplistic... and IMO for a good reason. If they go into details (as I"m sure many of the other news shows do) then people tune out or don't even pay attention. There are lots of news shows on PBS, CNN, NBC, etc, etc that have low ratings. Why? It's complicated and most people don't care about the details.

As above, I liken the situation to the Hells Angels. If Canada did nothing to police them, and they had total control over all of BC / Alberta / etc, and they decided to kidnap American forces, I could see that the US would be demanding that Canada at least try to take control back. Sure, it's not easy... but it is possible. The Hells Angels had clubhouses in Calgary, and I'm sure they still do, but their existance here is not an easy thing - apparently not even close to the ease of existance of Hezbollah in Lebanon.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lucky boy

I am not too sure how citizins are supposed to know that airports, highways, and powerplants are Hezbollah strongholds.

In my opinion, I find the leaflets insulting. The whole, "I warned I was going to bomb, it is your fault you died" mentality is just not right to me.

The irony of the whole thing is that you have one side who is trying as hard as possible to hit any target(civilian or not) and is doing a really poor job at it, and you have the other side who is trying not to hit any civilians and they also are doing a really poor job at it.

The irony is pretty rich.. but when you have one side aiming at Hospitals, it stops there.

If you live in a neighborhood, you at least hear rumors of where gangs are located, etc. This is true in a place where gangs are relatively rare. If the presence of gangs was like that of Hezbollah in southern Lebanon, you can be sure that people know where they congregate most.

If the Israeli army knows (or thinks they know), you can be sure those living in that area sure as heck know.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by calculoso

If I knew that the US was going to bomb Calgary, you can be sure that I wouldn't be anywhere close to the city... and I"m sure that there would be MANY others who would be fleeing too.

Unless you thought they were going to nuke the city I don't know why you would abandon your home.

There is a BIG BIG BIG difference between having a base in a civilian area, and using a unit in a duplex. Your comparison is so out of whack it's funny.

Why? What's the difference? The base IS an actual target, the military knows it, and they still place them in civilain areas. That's intentional.

The comparison I would make would be like if some country wanted to go after the Hells Angels. Sure they have a clubhouse somewhere, but it's usually right in the middle of a neighborhood. There usually isn't much of a difference between that building and most of the other civilian buildings around it. In addition, the Hells Angels have a heck of a lot of other "hangouts" than just their clubhouse. How are you supposed to pick them out from the rest of the houses? The leaflets serve as notice that they are going to try - get out.

You want to talk about an assinine comparison, look at what you just posted. So the government is going to go after Hells Angels, and they call in aristrikes? Pull your head out of your ass. Good Christ, what a joke. If the target is not military WTF are they doing using a military response? That's a joke in its own right. What you are condoning is an extreme response that has no regard for human life. What you are saying is that it os okay to use a weapon, as long as you warned people that you were indeed going to use. If that is true, then what was all the ****ing and moaning from the usual suspects around here about North Korea testing their missiles? They gave lots of advanced notice, so I guess that is okay now? You guys can't have it both ways.

It is simplistic... and IMO for a good reason. If they go into details (as I"m sure many of the other news shows do) then people tune out or don't even pay attention. There are lots of news shows on PBS, CNN, NBC, etc, etc that have low ratings. Why? It's complicated and most people don't care about the details.

Yeah, that's right, excuse ignorance with the crap job the media does. That makes sense.

As above, I liken the situation to the Hells Angels. If Canada did nothing to police them, and they had total control over all of BC / Alberta / etc, and they decided to kidnap American forces, I could see that the US would be demanding that Canada at least try to take control back. Sure, it's not easy... but it is possible. The Hells Angels had clubhouses in Calgary, and I'm sure they still do, but their existance here is not an easy thing - apparently not even close to the ease of existance of Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Riiiiiight. You would be okay with the United States bombing civilian targets in Canada just because a radical group broke the law. I guess people get the treatment they deserve. People get the government they deserve.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Azure

Considering the amount of strikes made by Israel already, yes I would say they are doing their best to not hit innocent civilians.

However, Hezaballah has shown no sign of that and should be held accountable by the whole world. Sadly, most nations refuse to mention that fact.

I'm back. Decided I needed to inform myself of the situation before making more posts.

How can you say Hezbollah is aiming for anything? They're using UNGUIDED rockets. They could just as well say they're aiming for military installations, and you can't even blame them for missing their target by kilometers. What THEY (Lebanon) are doing is self-defence, what Israel is doing is an invasion...a siege. Something meant to "set Lebanon back by 20 years".

I still stand by the fact that what Israel is doing is wrong, because they stand by the mantra "One million Arabs is not worth one Jewish fingernail". They're willing to do harm to all 1.5 million Gazans and 4 million Lebanese, all the while holding tens of thousands of their prisoners captured on Gazan/Lebanese soil, in retaliation to the kidnappings of THREE Israeli soldiers.

Either way it's a gongshow over there. Never ever going to end.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by calculoso

The irony is pretty rich.. but when you have one side aiming at Hospitals, it stops there.

If you live in a neighborhood, you at least hear rumors of where gangs are located, etc. This is true in a place where gangs are relatively rare. If the presence of gangs was like that of Hezbollah in southern Lebanon, you can be sure that people know where they congregate most.

If the Israeli army knows (or thinks they know), you can be sure those living in that area sure as heck know.

So why are they hitting Lebanon army installations now and not Hezbollah installations? They've bombed the CRAP out of south Lebanon where Hezbollah is rumored to be in control.

"The Lebanese army has largely stayed out of the fighting, but its positions have been repeatedly attacked by Israeli warplanes, undermining Israel's call for it to help push back Hezbollah from the border." (Yahoo news, AP)

This is like, Hell's Angels living in Calgary, but they nuke Toronto (while nuking Calgary). Where is it safe in that country now?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lucky boy

I would duck, but warning me still doesn't justify their action.

They're not trying to justify their actions, but rather protect as many lives as possible.

Its a different world over there, those people are used to see daily attacks.

[Azure]

How can you say Hezbollah is aiming for anything? They're using UNGUIDED rockets. They could just as well say they're aiming for military installations, and you can't even blame them for missing their target by kilometers. What THEY (Lebanon) are doing is self-defence, what Israel is doing is an invasion...a siege. Something meant to "set Lebanon back by 20 years".

Well, what exactly are they hitting? Hezballah is a terrorist organization that holds seats in the Lebanon government. That makes Lebanon accountable for their actions, and their appeasement of a terrorist organization.

But where are you getting from that the rockets are unguided?

I still stand by the fact that what Israel is doing is wrong, because they stand by the mantra "One million Arabs is not worth one Jewish fingernail". They're willing to do harm to all 1.5 million Gazans and 4 million Lebanese, all the while holding tens of thousands of their prisoners captured on Gazan/Lebanese soil, in retaliation to the kidnappings of THREE Israeli soldiers.

One million Jews are not worth one Arab fingernail. It works both ways.

But if you choose to blame a democratic government for taking action against a terrorist network, therefore siding yourself with a terrorist group, since you have been not been critical of the actions of Hezaballah, and even to a point DEFEND their attacks, go right ahead.

Either way it's a gongshow over there. Never ever going to end.

Actually it will end, when Israel has a 30 mile buffer zone in every direction outside of their country.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Regorium

I'm back. Decided I needed to inform myself of the situation before making more posts.

How can you say Hezbollah is aiming for anything? They're using UNGUIDED rockets. They could just as well say they're aiming for military installations, and you can't even blame them for missing their target by kilometers. What THEY (Lebanon) are doing is self-defence, what Israel is doing is an invasion...a siege. Something meant to "set Lebanon back by 20 years".

You do know that you still have to aim these rockets, especially the longer range rockets that they are using now. Its not a matter of fire and forget here, you actually have to calculate angles of launch, and fuel loads. Even when a rocket is unguided you can still put them in a pretty accurate general area by using a map, and a GPS that can be bought in any fishing store. Even with an unguided missile I can pretty comfortably put in within a 100 square foot drop zone. Combine that with the past history, and methods used by Hezbollah and Hamas, plus they pack the warheads with ball bearings which won't have a great deal of effect on an armoured and ready military foe but will cut down civilians like a combine.

How can Lebanon's actions be classified as self defense, wait I'll take that back. Why wouldn't Israel attack and build a buffer zone considering the initial attack by the Hezbollah was inside of the borders of Israel, combine that with the fact that rocket launches have been happening from within Lebanon and Palestine borders. If this was an attack designed to set Lebanon back 20 years, then I've lost all respect for Israel's military commanders because they're doing a **** poor job of it considering how many bombs and shells and bullets that they have in thier possession.

Originally Posted by Regorium

I still stand by the fact that what Israel is doing is wrong, because they stand by the mantra "One million Arabs is not worth one Jewish fingernail". They're willing to do harm to all 1.5 million Gazans and 4 million Lebanese, all the while holding tens of thousands of their prisoners captured on Gazan/Lebanese soil, in retaliation to the kidnappings of THREE Israeli soldiers.

Kinda similar to statements from these terrorist groups that they want to exterminate the state of Israel, and push the dirty zionist jews into the sea. They willing to strap on bombs and blow themselves up in market places and buses where they can get a maximum kill count. And they aim rockets at civillian areas so they can get maximum kill counts.

And why in the **** would Israel even bother negotiating with these thugs and terrorists. Every time Israel has they've had it thrown into thier faces with more murders and more rocket attacks.

Face facts. Hezbollah, and Hamas don't want peace in the region, they don't even really fight for land, they like to murder and kill. At least Israel tries to engage in a peace progress. If Blame is to be placed anywhere its on the animals in Hezbollah, and Hamas who don't fight for thier people, and don't fight for thier homes. They fight because they like it, and they have some twisted view that thier actions are going to lead them through the pearly gates into some twisted form of paradise.


Either way it's a gongshow over there. Never ever going to end.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Regorium

So why are they hitting Lebanon army installations now and not Hezbollah installations?

I previously posted a link - Israel believes that the Lebenese Military aided hezbolah - through use or information from their radar stations - to attack the Israeli Navy (Hezbolah missles hit a ship last week).

What THEY (Lebanon) are doing is self-defence, what Israel is doing is an invasion

The missles being shot from Lebanon are not in self-defense - they (hezbolah operating in Lebenon) have been firing missles into Norther Israel for weeks now.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Unless you thought they were going to nuke the city I don't know why you would abandon your home.

If I thought they were going to be striking my neighborhood, I would for sure leave. Why risk it?

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Why? What's the difference? The base IS an actual target, the military knows it, and they still place them in civilain areas. That's intentional.

Way to totally miss my point.

A military base is a sizeable and definied area. The fact that it is in a civilian area is deliberate, but much besides the fact. Hezbollah (etc) place a single building among many other civilian buildings. Military bases aren't anywhere close to this.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

You want to talk about an assinine comparison, look at what you just posted. So the government is going to go after Hells Angels, and they call in aristrikes? Pull your head out of your ass. Good Christ, what a joke.

And once again Lanny goes off the deep end.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

If the target is not military WTF are they doing using a military response?

My comparison was for how embedded they are in the community.

The Hells Angells have not bombed anybody. They are not military.

Hezbollah has bombs and send them. They are military. They also embed themselves in communities, much like the Hells Angels do.

Get the comparison now?

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Yeah, that's right, excuse ignorance with the crap job the media does. That makes sense.

I challenge you to keep it simple enough for people to pay attention, and do so within the typical segment on a newscast. Anything longer or more in depth is reserved for a special show (20/20 - like), which IMO has a much lower viewership.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Riiiiiight. You would be okay with the United States bombing civilian targets in Canada just because a radical group broke the law. I guess people get the treatment they deserve. People get the government they deserve.

If Canada was doing nothing to try and stop that radical group, then they condone it's being there.

Look. You can make all of the wild accusations that you want to. Go for it. Nothing is going to stop you.

I don't condone bombing civilian targets. I think it is horrible. I also know that with how well they seem to be embedded with the "normal" population that it is going to be inevitable.

You seem to want to let them go on their merry way and ignore them. This obviously is not acceptable and is not going to happen.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well, what exactly are they hitting? Hezballah is a terrorist organization that holds seats in the Lebanon government. That makes Lebanon accountable for their actions, and their appeasement of a terrorist organization.

But where are you getting from that the rockets are unguided?

One million Jews are not worth one Arab fingernail. It works both ways.

But if you choose to blame a democratic government for taking action against a terrorist network, therefore siding yourself with a terrorist group, since you have been not been critical of the actions of Hezaballah, and even to a point DEFEND their attacks, go right ahead.

Actually it will end, when Israel has a 30 mile buffer zone in every direction outside of their country.

They're mostly hitting open fields and such. One in every 20 hits a city. They basically aim at the general direction of a city, knowing the trajectory and such and try to adjust for wind. Very primitive weapons.

Are they really taking action against a terrorist network or are they taking action against the whole nation? I think that's one of the key points of contention. As I posted just a bit earlier, the quote was that they've started to hit the Lebanese army bases, even though they've stayed out of the fighting. Their heavy-handed approach seems much more like an invasion and a siege more than just to root the terrorists out (and secure the safe return of their soldiers).

A 30 mile buffer zone won't do the job. Neither will a 100 mile buffer. The resentment already caused by this act will never stop the fighting, no matter what the UN says. Really...I just see Lebanon getting wiped off the map to end the conflict, ditto with Palestine.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Regorium

So why are they hitting Lebanon army installations now and not Hezbollah installations? They've bombed the CRAP out of south Lebanon where Hezbollah is rumored to be in control.

If they've bombed the CRAP out of south Lebanon, they must be doing a pretty good job of it. IMO, bombing the CRAP out of a place would lead to a lot more casualties.

Originally Posted by Regorium

This is like, Hell's Angels living in Calgary, but they nuke Toronto (while nuking Calgary). Where is it safe in that country now?

Going to Nuking stage now? lol

IMO, this is more like bombing Edmonton if there were radar stations up there aiding in the bombing of Seattle

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Regorium

As I posted just a bit earlier, the quote was that they've started to hit the Lebanese army bases, even though they've stayed out of the fighting.

I think this is a point of contention too. Read the article posted earlier in this thread - the Lebanese army may NOT have been staying out of it.

Originally Posted by Regorium

A 30 mile buffer zone won't do the job. Neither will a 100 mile buffer. The resentment already caused by this act will never stop the fighting, no matter what the UN says. Really...I just see Lebanon getting wiped off the map to end the conflict, ditto with Palestine.

This "act" is not alone. This was caused by many other "acts" in the past... you know.. ones that tried to wipe Israel off of the map.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

You do know that you still have to aim these rockets, especially the longer range rockets that they are using now.

Yes, I know. Still, they're unguided. And they CAN and DO miss frequently. I'm not defending them shooting rockets, I'm wondering why Israel is "missing" so often.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

How can Lebanon's actions be classified as self defense, wait I'll take that back. Why wouldn't Israel attack and build a buffer zone considering the initial attack by the Hezbollah was inside of the borders of Israel, combine that with the fact that rocket launches have been happening from within Lebanon and Palestine borders. If this was an attack designed to set Lebanon back 20 years, then I've lost all respect for Israel's military commanders because they're doing a **** poor job of it considering how many bombs and shells and bullets that they have in thier possession.

Well, what of the thousands of Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners that Israel has captured from Lebanese/Palestinian soil? Can they be considered an "initial attack"? How far back do we go? How about the massacre of Arabs by the Israeli's when they claimed the chunk of land that the UN said was theirs back in 1948?

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Kinda similar to statements from these terrorist groups that they want to exterminate the state of Israel, and push the dirty zionist jews into the sea. They willing to strap on bombs and blow themselves up in market places and buses where they can get a maximum kill count. And they aim rockets at civillian areas so they can get maximum kill counts.

Fair. It goes both ways. Kinda sad though, when maximum kill counts is 1/5th of the civilian casualties that they've suffered.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

And why in the **** would Israel even bother negotiating with these thugs and terrorists. Every time Israel has they've had it thrown into thier faces with more murders and more rocket attacks.

Face facts. Hezbollah, and Hamas don't want peace in the region, they don't even really fight for land, they like to murder and kill. At least Israel tries to engage in a peace progress. If Blame is to be placed anywhere its on the animals in Hezbollah, and Hamas who don't fight for thier people, and don't fight for thier homes. They fight because they like it, and they have some twisted view that thier actions are going to lead them through the pearly gates into some twisted form of paradise.

Israel is trying to engage in a surrender process. A "conditional ceasefire" if you will. It's obviously one sided. What happened to the Lebanese demands? Where's the exchange of soldiers?

It CAN be argued that they are fighting for their people. The people of Palestine elected Hamas to do this fighting for them. Their cause is to drive out the people that STOLE their land 50 years ago. Because of this, I think you're right - There will NEVER be peace, until every last Lebanese and Palestinian has been wiped out.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by calculoso

I think this is a point of contention too. Read the article posted earlier in this thread - the Lebanese army may NOT have been staying out of it.

This "act" is not alone. This was caused by many other "acts" in the past... you know.. ones that tried to wipe Israel off of the map.

Oh I know the act is not alone. I understand this is a really complicated matter dating back to when Israel was born as a state. Who's been MORE wrong in the past 50 years? That's debatable. But in my opinion, Israel has done more wrong to the surrounding countries.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Yes, I know. Still, they're unguided. And they CAN and DO miss frequently. I'm not defending them shooting rockets, I'm wondering why Israel is "missing" so often.

Could they be "hitting", but using bigger bombs that do more damage than needed? I swear I heard something about most of the civilian casualties coming from surrounding buildings that were weakened by the blast from the strike. The legitimate question here would be why is Israel using bombs that powerful, if this is happening? I don't know the answer to that.

Originally Posted by Regorium

Well, what of the thousands of Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners that Israel has captured from Lebanese/Palestinian soil? Can they be considered an "initial attack"? How far back do we go? How about the massacre of Arabs by the Israeli's when they claimed the chunk of land that the UN said was theirs back in 1948?

If you listen to Lanny, this is what they should be doing more of, and less of the bombing. Food for thought, but either way, somebody is going to be ****ed off from it.

Originally Posted by Regorium

Israel is trying to engage in a surrender process. A "conditional ceasefire" if you will. It's obviously one sided. What happened to the Lebanese demands? Where's the exchange of soldiers?

It's a demand, but it's a negotiation. They know that Hezbollah isn't going to give in, and they know that a mediated solution will be somewhere in the middle. It's like how the NHL players arbitration used to be - each over-exaggerates their demands so the middle is more to their liking. That said, I can't blame Israel for their demands either:

"Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said Tuesday that a ceasefire with Hezbollah would only be possible under certain conditions -- if the soldiers were released, if Lebanon guaranteed the dismantling of Hezbollah, and the Lebanese army deployed along their shared border." - CTV Link

Originally Posted by Regorium

It CAN be argued that they are fighting for their people. The people of Palestine elected Hamas to do this fighting for them. Their cause is to drive out the people that STOLE their land 50 years ago.

I guess that the gains of every war should be given back to their original countries then....