United 93, opening old wounds and exposing some truth?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

Of course you've worked in the Secret Service and know everything that went on that day. Every flight plan, seating arrangement, snipers, close protection guards, transportation, where Bush was supposed to eat, get to a plane, where Air Force One was, if it was refueled and so on.

Grasping this straw is pathetic. Any President, in that situation would have done the same thing. Had it been a democrat, nobody would be complaining.

Your "hatred" for Bush is obvious. Get a frickin' clue. 7 min is not a long time.

Nah, I haven't worked in the secret service. And unfortunately I don't have good buddies in the organization so I'm not privy to the insider information that you are. I do, however, have an ounce of common sense, and that ounce tells me that they always have a plan to get the boss moving in an emergency.

What do you think? They didn't have transportation, seating arrangements, meals and bodyguards lined up beforehand? What were they going to do when he wanted to leave the school, make him wait for the bus? They had to wait for the plane to get fuelled up? Again, I don't get the insider stuff that you do, but I'm pretty sure George doesn't spend a lot of time in the executive lounge waiting for a Southwest connector to Miami to fuel up.

I've said it before -- I don't hate the guy, I just think he sucks at his job. I also don't believe that any other president would have just sat there with a stupid look on his face while the fecesstorm raged around him. Good leaders don't just freeze.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

7 min is not a long time.

You're absolutely right. Which is, in a way, what I was saying originally. What worries me more is the time that had already elapsed by the time Bush found anything out at all. I'm the first to admit that it was a bureaucratic failure, not a personal one.

My opinion on Bush's foreing policy is another story. He gets full credit, and full blame, for what has happened on his watch since 9/11. If we consider Katrina to be a dry run for major disasters/attacks on US soil in the post 9/11 era, then my opinion (like TheCommodoreAfro's) is that indications aren't good. But I hope I'm wrong.

I also think that Bush has trampled on American civil liberties rather more than he probably ought to have. It was Benjamin Franklin who said "Those who would sacrifice liberty for a little security will receive and deserve neither." Franklin, like FDR, is one of my heroes, in part because of his uncanny ability to cut to the quick of issues that are still current today. Indeed, his comment "A good republic, if we can keep it" seems particularly pertinent given the erosion of constitutionally guaranteed rights to privacy in the US, with warrantless wiretapping of phones and god knows what else being engaged in by the NSA.

Yet more alarming? Check out this article in the Boston Globe by investigative reporter Charlie Savage.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...dreds_of_laws/

Here's a quick quote for those who'd rather just skip to the good parts:

WASHINGTON -- President Bush has quietly claimed the authority to disobey more than 750 laws enacted since he took office, asserting that he has the power to set aside any statute passed by Congress when it conflicts with his interpretation of the Constitution.


Among the laws Bush said he can ignore are military rules and regulations, affirmative-action provisions, requirements that Congress be told about immigration services problems, ''whistle-blower" protections for nuclear regulatory officials, and safeguards against political interference in federally funded research.
Legal scholars say the scope and aggression of Bush's assertions that he can bypass laws represent a concerted effort to expand his power at the expense of Congress, upsetting the balance between the branches of government.

Even Republican lawmakers are up in arms about this one--though the public is so far barely aware of this shocking power grab.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

Of course you've worked in the Secret Service and know everything that went on that day. Every flight plan, seating arrangement, snipers, close protection guards, transportation, where Bush was supposed to eat, get to a plane, where Air Force One was, if it was refueled and so on.

I do work with an ex-secret service agent, who was assigned to President Clinton, prior to Monica-gate, and then to the Gore after the break of that story, and I have had opportunity to interface with this office and they plan for every possible scenario where ever the President travels. There are multiple routes, to and from, where the President is visiting. There is a hospital on stand-by with a dedicated surgical team, pre-cleared through one of the most extensive background checks known to man, in the event of a medical issue for the President. There are contingencies that all those around the President are well aware of and have practiced a thousand times so they become second nature. They are schooled, in the event of an incident, to have the President moved to a pre-determined secure location immediately. This is how the Secret Service protects the President, and when Bush was allowed to sit there for those seven minutes it raised of eye brows in that community.

Here's a question for you neo-con supporting fellas. Why did Bush go on a several hour flight when he was less than 30 miles from CENTCOM command at McDill airforce base in Tampa? That is one of the most secure sites in the United States, and it was 30 minutes away by car, or a couple minutes by Airforce One, why the hopscotching around the country?

Grasping this straw is pathetic. Any President, in that situation would have done the same thing. Had it been a democrat, nobody would be complaining.

Actually, you're wrong, and full of **** again. It has been proven, time-and-time again, that if a Democrat had done the same thing he would have been roasted alive by the media and the Republicans. It would have marked the President as indecisive and uncaring. FoxNews and Clear Channel would have publicly crucified the President. There have been too many instances where those particular bodies have been defending Bush for sitting there, and then when the question was spun around and the name "Clinton" was put in that classroom seat, the speaker falls on his own sword. The lack of response (dead air) or the "well that would be different" tells you exactly what would have happened. A Democrat got burned at the stake for getting head in the Oval office, imagine what the response would have been if he sat there when the nation was under attack?

Your "hatred" for Bush is obvious. Get a frickin' clue. 7 min is not a long time.

More bull****. 7 minutes in today's world is a very long time. An F15 Eagle can fly from Calgary to Leduc in that time. A nuclear missile takes 45 minutes to travel from the other side of the planet to strike a target, so that 7 minutes means the weapon could have travelled 1/6th of it flight plan (or over 4,000 miles). Thinking of Electronical warfare, Yahoo was hacked in less than 7 minutes. In a world where the complete data contained at the library of congress can be bounced off a satellite in a few seconds (massive bandwidth), where weapons can be controlled from the other side of the world, and where decisions have instantaneous results, 7 minutes can be an eternity. Having the commander and chief of the country sitting in a classroom for 7 minutes while his country is under attack is in-excusable. If Harper or Chretien did the same thing, Canadians would be some ****ed.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Even Republican lawmakers are up in arms about this one--though the public is so far barely aware of this shocking power grab.

Quoted for truth. The media in this country is pathetic. Those that are on the White House's side (NewsCorp, Clear Channel, etc.) are unabashed in their development of propaganda, and the other outlets are too damn scared to ask the hard questions and do the investigative work that was done in the past. The Bush administration has done a briliant job at keeping their friends close, and their enemies [in the media] even closer.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Here's a question for you neo-con supporting fellas. Why did Bush go on a several hour flight when he was less than 30 miles from CENTCOM command at McDill airforce base in Tampa? That is one of the most secure sites in the United States, and it was 30 minutes away by car, or a couple minutes by Airforce One, why the hopscotching around the country?

Actually and just because I don't want to get sucked into this debate. During an attack on U.S. soil, or any threat to the president the standard plan of action is to either get him onto airforce one or Kneecap and get him into the air as soon as possible until the threat has been properly analyzed and its been acertained that there is no bodily threat to the president. In a time of crisis the best defense for the president is mobility, they would throw that away in they moved him to CENTCOM or the vault in Virginia or any other stationary target.

Once he's in the air, he's suppossed to stay there for up to 24 hours after the passing of the crisis.

So I disagree with you there.

On the 7 minute thing, the one thing that would have caused mass panic is if the president was wrestled out of the room by secret service agents with guns pulled. Or if the president with an angry look on his face stood up mumbled about going to war and stormed out of the place. At the initial point of the crisis there is a check list that is already pre-approved by the president that should be followed, the one thing we don't know is if A) there was a checklist, if there wasn't then we're talking about a command authority that was unprepared for this type of crisis.

B) If the checklist was followed to the letter, because if it wasn't then there is a whole other kind of problem with the U.S. Command structure.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Actually and just because I don't want to get sucked into this debate. During an attack on U.S. soil, or any threat to the president the standard plan of action is to either get him onto airforce one or Kneecap and get him into the air as soon as possible until the threat has been properly analyzed and its been acertained that there is no bodily threat to the president. In a time of crisis the best defense for the president is mobility, they would throw that away in they moved him to CENTCOM or the vault in Virginia or any other stationary target.

Once he's in the air, he's suppossed to stay there for up to 24 hours after the passing of the crisis.

So I disagree with you there.

On the 7 minute thing, the one thing that would have caused mass panic is if the president was wrestled out of the room by secret service agents with guns pulled. Or if the president with an angry look on his face stood up mumbled about going to war and stormed out of the place. At the initial point of the crisis there is a check list that is already pre-approved by the president that should be followed, the one thing we don't know is if A) there was a checklist, if there wasn't then we're talking about a command authority that was unprepared for this type of crisis.

B) If the checklist was followed to the letter, because if it wasn't then there is a whole other kind of problem with the U.S. Command structure.

I am aware of the protocol for the President being in the air, and remaining so, but I thought there was no crisis. But there is the contradiction in all of this. If the President could sit there for 7 minutes, some will argue there was obviously no crisis. So in response, the right thing to do would have been to proceed to Centcom to get the skinny on what was going on. He was only minutes away from one of the command centers for American forces, so it would have been very easy to go there and be apprised of the situation.

But there obviously was a crisis, and that was established by how the siutaion was handled after the fact when Bush was aloft for the better part of the next 12 hours. This established that there was a crisis and that certain protocols had been enacted to protect the President and the Vice-President (or are you going to argue that).

I'm sorry, I laugh at the whole "he didn't want to cause a panic" line of thought. He was listening to a grade two class read My Pet Goat. Which is more important? Finding out how the goat does, or getting the low-down on an on-going terrorist attack? Jesus, its extremely obvious. The intelligent thing to do is to halt the photo-op (that's all it was) and explain that an urgent matter has come to the attention of the White House and the President must take a call. At that point the President could be moved and any decision requiring executive order (like the downing of a civilian aircraft) could be handled. Having the villiage idiot sitting in a classroom of 7 year olds is pathetic. This was the first in a series of events where Bush exposed the fact he doesn't perform well under pressure. The President experienced vapor lock and sat there like an idiot until the photo-op concluded. Great leadership shown there. Maybe you are right, and he did the nation a favor by sitting there. I guess no decision is better than a Bush decision.

[Flames-4-ever]

Yeah Bush should of ran from the room and left all of children in it. That would of been true leadership. "People stay calm, continue with your normal life" was the message that Rudy and Bush gave after 9/11 (Chretien was skipping condolences with the US so he could go to Liberal fundraisers. Pig.) and what an example Bush would have been if he ducked and ran out of an elementry school.


Bush would of been criticised no matter what he did in that situation.

[Azure]

Nah, I haven't worked in the secret service. And unfortunately I don't have good buddies in the organization so I'm not privy to the insider information that you are. I do, however, have an ounce of common sense, and that ounce tells me that they always have a plan to get the boss moving in an emergency.

After a disaster like that I would think everyone would be equally shocked. Did they know what happened? Who did it? There are way to many factors that you have to take into effect before you can blame the President for not moving, instantly. To me he showed composure by staying calm. Something that country needed at that time. I'm sure that who ever he was traveling with, SS, personal aides and such were going absolutely crazy right after the attacks. Plus, you have no idea what was whispered into his ear when they told him about the attacks. It could very well be they told him to stay put, feeling the school was the safest place at the moment.

What do you think? They didn't have transportation, seating arrangements, meals and bodyguards lined up beforehand? What were they going to do when he wanted to leave the school, make him wait for the bus? They had to wait for the plane to get fuelled up? Again, I don't get the insider stuff that you do, but I'm pretty sure George doesn't spend a lot of time in the executive lounge waiting for a Southwest connector to Miami to fuel up.

Lined to to the precise time when the President was supposed to be leaving. Everything had to be changed to fit the schedule because of the earlier exit from the school. Ever watched a President go by in a motorcade? The security is out of this world.

I've said it before -- I don't hate the guy, I just think he sucks at his job. I also don't believe that any other president would have just sat there with a stupid look on his face while the fecesstorm raged around him. Good leaders don't just freeze.

Good leaders also don't jump up and run around screaming. Besides, you really think it was Bush's fault that he had to sit there? Or don't you think that his people told him to stay put until they were sure what was happening?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flames-4-ever

Yeah Bush should of ran from the room and left all of children in it. That would of been true leadership. "People stay calm, continue with your normal life" was the message that Rudy and Bush gave after 9/11 (Chretien was skipping condolences with the US so he could go to Liberal fundraisers. Pig.) and what an example Bush would have been if he ducked and ran out of an elementry school.


Bush would of been criticised no matter what he did in that situation.

You don't understand my friend. By having Bush sit there and "do nothing" as Lanny so obviously points out, it means he knew about the attacks before-hand, because obviously he set them up.

Sorry Lanny, but outside of your comment about the Secret Service, you're full of ****. I don't respond to people who think conspiracy theory regarding every major event that happens throughout the world.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Flames-4-ever

Yeah Bush should of ran from the room and left all of children in it. That would of been true leadership. "People stay calm, continue with your normal life" was the message that Rudy and Bush gave after 9/11 (Chretien was skipping condolences with the US so he could go to Liberal fundraisers. Pig.) and what an example Bush would have been if he ducked and ran out of an elementry school.


Bush would of been criticised no matter what he did in that situation.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Bush should have gotten up and ran, screaming like the little girl he is, waiving his arms wildly like his buddies at Fox News! Give me a break.

What he should have done is immediately interrupt the reading and calmly say that he had just been informed of an urgent matter than needed his immediate attention, then got up and left the room. No one would have been panicked and no one would have second guessed him. Sitting there, alternating between staring at the ceiling and his navel was NOT the thing to do, no matter how you try and spin it. What would you have said if Clinton did the same thing? You would have said he was indecisive, lack backbone, was a bad leader and then cracked some joke about them waiting for the hookers to arrive. I've heard all the excuses/stories over the past four years.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

After a disaster like that I would think everyone would be equally shocked. Did they know what happened? Who did it? There are way to many factors that you have to take into effect before you can blame the President for not moving, instantly. To me he showed composure by staying calm. Something that country needed at that time. I'm sure that who ever he was traveling with, SS, personal aides and such were going absolutely crazy right after the attacks. Plus, you have no idea what was whispered into his ear when they told him about the attacks. It could very well be they told him to stay put, feeling the school was the safest place at the moment.



Lined to to the precise time when the President was supposed to be leaving. Everything had to be changed to fit the schedule because of the earlier exit from the school. Ever watched a President go by in a motorcade? The security is out of this world.




Good leaders also don't jump up and run around screaming. Besides, you really think it was Bush's fault that he had to sit there? Or don't you think that his people told him to stay put until they were sure what was happening?

You are aware I'm sure that their is a happy medium between "sitting still" and "running around screaming".

This is ridiculous. You are saying 2 different things. 1) the security is "out of this world" and 2) they weren't prepared for anything to happen other than what was written in the daytimer

Which is it?

This is really a silly argument. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter what he did in that 7 minutes. It was a signature moment though -- he both looked and acted like he was in over his head.

He should be happy that it was caught on camera though because if anyone ever needs absolute proof that he wasn't "in on it" as some of the more suspicious types have hinted, the look on his face in that classroom should be enough to prove it.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

Sorry Lanny, but outside of your comment about the Secret Service, you're full of ****. I don't respond to people who think conspiracy theory regarding every major event that happens throughout the world.

Yeah, that's it. There's a conspiracy theory behind everything. Get a grip moron. There was more than enough evidence leading up to 9/11 that would indicate the Bush Administration is either the most incompetent group known to man, or they intentionally ignored the intelligence reports and data. Looking at what has happened after the fact, we know how they deal with data, which does not make them incompetent. It males them manipulative. Their motivations for ignoring the evidence of an imminent attack need to be understood.

[Azure]

You are aware I'm sure that their is a happy medium between "sitting still" and "running around screaming".

This is ridiculous. You are saying 2 different things. 1) the security is "out of this world" and 2) they weren't prepared for anything to happen other than what was written in the daytimer

Yet it is out of this world. So what exactly does that mean?

I'll give you a hint; means you can't prepare a unscheduled security detail within 7 min, while still expecting it to be perfectly safe.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Maybe, but it doesnt make it a conpiracy

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Yeah, that's it. There's a conspiracy theory behind everything. Get a grip moron. There was more than enough evidence leading up to 9/11 that would indicate the Bush Administration is either the most incompetent group known to man, or they intentionally ignored the intelligence reports and data. Looking at what has happened after the fact, we know how they deal with data, which does not make them incompetent. It males them manipulative. Their motivations for ignoring the evidence of an imminent attack need to be understood.

Or set up the attack themselves, or even shot a missile into the Pentagon. There is no point in even arguing with you; reading through the history of your posts on this board brings me to the conclusion you are one of the most stupidest people I've met. Working for the "government", (oh God Lanny works for the government, he knows everything,) does not give you any more credibility then other people I've talked with, some who have pretty high end jobs throughout the military and intelligence agency's, and all directly oppose all the nonsense you're spewing.

Want a clue of how things work with the SS?

You make an assumption you know what the Secret Service told him to do. Having just spent 4 hours working with the Secret Service yesterday helping with crowd control of 18,000 when an aircraft penetrated the President’ Temporary Flight Restriction area, I have a fairly good idea how they operate.

SOP (standard operating procedure for those not familiar with governmental operations) is that the Secret Service makes no changes in plans without everyone on the team being brought up to speed. The President was in a safe place at the time and the agents would need at least 5 minutes to resecure either of the routes back to the airport and the perimeter of the school before they would allow the President to move. They prefer to do that in both a calm atmosphere and raising as little notice or suspicion as possible since the most secured public area is still considered an observed and watched area. In this particular case, hundreds of law enforcement officers, Air Force One flight crew, as well as all local detail agents would need to be briefed on the new plans and positioned as needed. Even the ground crew of AF1 would need to modify preflight schedules and possibly take on additional fuel for flight to multiple alternate airports.

You must also understand that since Presidential and Executive Security was moved under the Treasure / Secret Service in the early 1900s, they are the one group that legally has ultimate veto power over the President when it comes to his personal safety. My hunch, backed up by several of my former Secret Service friends, is that Card told the President what had happened and relayed instructions from the Secret Service to stall 5 minutes while they completed evacuation arrangements. Under those circumstances, it would take a tremendous poker player with nerves of steel to be able to concentrate on acting like nothing was happening while also knowing that the next public statement you are about to make in 5-10 minutes and composing in your mind is about to be heard by the entire world unfiltered.

The principle and teacher with the President at the time were both lifelong Democrat and NEA supporters, yet they have both changed their minds and become very strong supporters of the President as well as Jeb when he took his stand against the NEA in 2002. This was based on their inside knowledge and observations of the actual activities at the time.

So whose right Lanny? You, or someone that has worked with the SS?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

What he should have done is immediately interrupt the reading and calmly say that he had just been informed of an urgent matter than needed his immediate attention, then got up and left the room. No one would have been panicked and no one would have second guessed him. Sitting there, alternating between staring at the ceiling and his navel was NOT the thing to do, no matter how you try and spin it. What would you have said if Clinton did the same thing? You would have said he was indecisive, lack backbone, was a bad leader and then cracked some joke about them waiting for the hookers to arrive. I've heard all the excuses/stories over the past four years.

And where should he have gone? Stand outside the classroom? You seriously think Bush makes the decision of whether or not he should move, get up or sit down?

And if Clinton would have done the same thing, you'd have applauded him for being so calm and collected, while sitting there only knowing that a plane has hit the WTC.

[Azure]

And I am done here. This thread is going absolutely nowhere, especially with the conspiracy theories that people try to use in order to elaborate their arguement.

Lanny I can respect your viewpoint, where you work and what you do, but that does not mean you know everything. There are millions of people that work at higher levels then you, yet they think exactly the opposite.

I will say though, while to me your posts are ridiculous they do provide good entertainment.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

means you can't prepare a unscheduled security detail within 7 min, while still expecting it to be perfectly safe.

No I'm sure you can't. That's why they, you know, plan ahead. That way they don't have to make it up as they go, like you are suggesting they do.

I don't get it. For some people it's like a religion defending this guy. He can do no wrong. Look, it's pretty obvious that he froze up. We've all seen the game tape. Why can't you just admit it? You can still be a conservative, you can still be a Bush supporter, you can still hate the damned LIBERAL MEDIA BIAS and admit that doing nothing was not the best thing he could be doing at that time.

That is what you are saying you know. You are saying that the best option for the President, the best thing he could have done after he learns that the country is being attacked, is suddenly "at war", is to sit in his chair and do nothing. He shouldn't ask for more information, he shouldn't stand up, he shouldn't forget about the little photo-op, you are saying that he should sit in his chair and do nothing.

Now I'm no expert on these matters (and despite your close links to the intelligence community I doubt you are either), so I can't say what he should have done but I'm pretty confident in my opinion of what he shouldn't have done, and what he shouldn't have done is just sit in his chair with a stunned look on his face.

I mean think about it -- people watching television knew more about it than he did. Does that seem right to you?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

No I'm sure you can't. That's why they, you know, plan ahead. That way they don't have to make it up as they go, like you are suggesting they do.

I don't get it. For some people it's like a religion defending this guy. He can do no wrong. Look, it's pretty obvious that he froze up. We've all seen the game tape. Why can't you just admit it? You can still be a conservative, you can still be a Bush supporter, you can still hate the damned LIBERAL MEDIA BIAS and admit that doing nothing was not the best thing he could be doing at that time.

That is what you are saying you know. You are saying that the best option for the President, the best thing he could have done after he learns that the country is being attacked, is suddenly "at war", is to sit in his chair and do nothing. He shouldn't ask for more information, he shouldn't stand up, he shouldn't forget about the little photo-op, you are saying that he should sit in his chair and do nothing.

Now I'm no expert on these matters (and despite your close links to the intelligence community I doubt you are either), so I can't say what he should have done but I'm pretty confident in my opinion of what he shouldn't have done, and what he shouldn't have done is just sit in his chair with a stunned look on his face.

I mean think about it -- people watching television knew more about it than he did. Does that seem right to you?

Fair enough. I can't really argue with that, although I still believe that Bush was told to sit still until his people could figure out what is happening and where the safest location would be.

Good points though. At least you can be civil about it.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Fair enough. I can't really argue with that, although I still believe that Bush was told to sit still until his people could figure out what is happening and where the safest location would be.

Good points though. At least you can be civil about it.

"Bush was told to sit still until his people could figure out what is happening..." Like Bush couldn't figure anything out for himself. Glad you agree that he's a puppet. Doesn't say much for his leadership abilities, does it?