[PGT] Preds 2 Flames 1

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

What I see is two people who have decided their view, are largely seeing and interpreting things that only support that view and are largely ignoring what each other saying
But carry on…

Show me where he made an argument that wasnt Jakub Pelletier isnt Cole Caufield (where i acknowleged that he isnt but its not as far off pre-NHL production wise) or that it's only bad or injury plaged teams giving these guys a shot (where I provided counter points about guys like Alex Newhook or Dawson Mercer in NJ or Cole Perfetti in WPG who are contributing on good teams with similar junior/AHL pedigree to Pelletier).

So no i dont think Im ignoring his points - his points just aren't making a very compelling argument.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

If he was actually trying to provide a real example of

A) How the Flames are doing the right thing to help them win
B) Why this is actually better for Pelletier's development

Then id happily have the discussion.

Instead he cherry picks the examples that I provided and provided nothing more than a blind defense of the Flames.

So personally I dont actually see much of a point of view worth considering there because he really hasnt made much of an effort to actually make an argument worth considering.

Honestly its no different then the overly negative posts that have no substance that we see in the PGT after losses or in the Fire Treliving thread, just the opposite end of the spectrum on the positive side instead of the negative side.

So you are saying playing in the actual and local development league is not helping him....develop?

And he should be in the league that isn't for developing because....?

Furthermore are you suggesting that the HC of this club is not interested in fielding the best chance of his team winning.....for some reason?

Cuz to be honest niether one of those positions make any sense at all.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Show me where he made an argument that wasnt Jakub Pelletier isnt Cole Caufield (where i acknowleged that he isnt but its not as far off pre-NHL production wise) or that it's only bad or injury plaged teams giving these guys a shot (where I provided counter points about guys like Alex Newhook or Dawson Mercer in NJ or Cole Perfetti in WPG who are contributing on good teams with similar junior/AHL pedigree to Pelletier).

So no i dont think Im ignoring his points - his points just aren't making a very compelling argument.

Those guys (Caufield, Perfetti, Newhook, Mercer) have more natural abilities that Pelletier. Caufield has elite goal scoring ability, and did when drafted. There were questions about his size but he's got elite instincts and was considered the best goal scorer in the draft. Newhook also has very high end offensive abilities in terms of his hockey sense, skating and ability to make plays.

I'm not going to break down each guy, but they all are better offensive players than Pelletier, who is more of a good all around player, with a strong level of compete. He's got a lot of strong attributes but isn't elite in any one thing.

I like Pelletier a lot. And I think he's ready to be given a look.

But those guys are in the NHL ahead of him because they are more than likely stronger players. Frankly I think the Avs have done a disservice to Newhook, not by playing him in the NHL, but giving him a little too much responsibility too soon. They considered him to be the replacement for Kadri and I don't think he's ready for that.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by transplant99

So you are saying playing in the actual and local development league is not helping him....develop?

And he should be in the league that isn't for developing because....?

Furthermore are you suggesting that the HC of this club is not interested in fielding the best chance of his team winning.....for some reason?

Cuz to be honest niether one of those positions make any sense at all.

At some point to continue developing you need to take the next step. Hes played ~100 AHL games, IMO now he needs 5-10 NHL games to get a taste of that level at least and depending on how he fairs in those games he either shows enough that he stays up or goes back down to take that experience to continue his development with learnings from what he needs to change to adapt to the NHL level.

I think everyone has biases and I do think at this stage in his career Sutter has a bias towards lower risk lower upside veterans over potential higher upside but higher risk younger players. And I think his bias for size is well documented too. So yeah I do think thay his bias maybe have him making a decison that he believes is best for the team, when maybe thats not the case especially longer term.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Those guys (Caufield, Perfetti, Newhook, Mercer) have more natural abilities that Pelletier. Caufield has elite goal scoring ability, and did when drafted. There were questions about his size but he's got elite instincts and was considered the best goal scorer in the draft. Newhook also has very high end offensive abilities in terms of his hockey sense, skating and ability to make plays.

I'm not going to break down each guy, but they all are better offensive players than Pelletier, who is more of a good all around player, with a strong level of compete. He's got a lot of strong attributes but isn't elite in any one thing.

I like Pelletier a lot. And I think he's ready to be given a look.

But those guys are in the NHL ahead of him because they are more than likely stronger players. Frankly I think the Avs have done a disservice to Newhook, not by playing him in the NHL, but giving him a little too much responsibility too soon. They considered him to be the replacement for Kadri and I don't think he's ready for that.

Caufield has elite goalscoring skills for sure and thats something Pelletier doesnt have, but i do think i question that the other three are a step ahead offensively.

It's tough to compare NCAA to QMJHL production but on the same WJC team they had the same Point per game production. At the AHL level as rookies they had very similar production as well - Newhook with a limited sample of 20 points in 18 career AHL games vs 96 in 97 games for Pelletier.

Mercer is an elite skater so that helps but production wise their QMJHL stats arent that different - 275 points in 210 games for Pelletier (1.31 PPG) compared to 186 points in 194 games for Mercer (0.96 PPG). Each had 7 and 6 points respectively on the same WJC team as well.

Perfetti was a 10th overall pick - so he was higher regarded for sure. Perfetti has great vision and is a better playmaker than Pelletier but once again when looking at AHL production its super close - with 41 points in 49 career games for Perfetti. Also had 6 points in 7 games on the same WJC team as Pelletier, Mercer, and Newhook.

So maybe Pelletier isnt as naturally skilled at these guys but really at either the junior, AHL, or WJC hes been able to perform at the same offensive clip as these guys, or actually better.

To me he's the same quality of prospect as all of them (except Caufield), but his skills have been a bit downplayed by the fanbase who see him as more of a grinder (which he can do too as a great PKer in the AHL).

And I do actually agree that Newhook was probably rushed a bit - hes keeping a float but he probably shouldnt have been playing out of college in 20-21 but hey Colorado and Newhook have a Stanley Cup that he was a part of.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by CGY12

You might be the ultimate optimistic Flames fan, I have no issue with that, but wow you are some kind of special when dealing with people who don't share the same opinion as you. Telling people to get a grip, calling them losers, being a hypocrite and telling posters to enjoy the win in the PGT when they have anything remotely critical to say about the team but at the same time in other PGTs instigating crap by attacking folks who said anything critical in the game thread after a win.

lol he said that Darryl makes fun of players...that isn't an opinion it was ridiculous over the top nonsense. Another poster called it "verbal diarrhea" which was accurate. Maybe look at the context before just seeing my username and calling me out. That "get a grip" was well deserved.

also, you challenged me to a fight at the dome for saying they wouldn't have made it to OT if Huberdeau didn't score in the Kings game PGT so...those in glass houses pal

[dino7c]

Remember when the Wings kept players in the minors longer than any other team and were the best run organization in the NHL for two decades?

being in the AHL at 20-21 is not a bad thing...more often then not its the way to go

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

At some point to continue developing you need to take the next step. Hes played ~100 AHL games, IMO now he needs 5-10 NHL games to get a taste of that level at least and depending on how he fairs in those games he either shows enough that he stays up or goes back down to take that experience to continue his development with learnings from what he needs to change to adapt to the NHL level.

I think everyone has biases and I do think at this stage in his career Sutter has a bias towards lower risk lower upside veterans over potential higher upside but higher risk younger players. And I think his bias for size is well documented too. So yeah I do think thay his bias maybe have him making a decison that he believes is best for the team, when maybe thats not the case especially longer term.

Fair enough but Sutter (when winning Stanley cups in LA) played all sorts of young guys so Im not sure why he would not follow the same game plan here?

Look you may be correct in your assessment about DS....I just think that if he really believed that Pelltier (who i really am a big fan of) could in any way/ shape help this team now....he would be playing

[Bingo]

The issue for me is that this goes on in pretty much every market (especially Canadian ones) and has been going on in Calgary since I started this website.

People like young players in the lineup, and it creates an impatience.

Sutter isn't a flowery guy, and he went out of his way to expand on liking Pelletier yesterday when he has a history of being pretty curt on his best of days.

I think he will get a shot, they can't stay injury free forever.

They had a stinker in Nashville, so maybe that's the opportunity he needs? Either way the team is 4-5th in the conference since December 1st and picking up points most games. They're coming off a largely successful road trip.

The case for change would be a lot easier to make if a) the team was losing or b) that somewhat dysfunctional line with Lucic on it had actual results go against them and not just underlying numbers.

But for the record I want to see Pelletier too. I just don't get so fist squeezing angry about it as some.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Remember when the Wings kept players in the minors longer than any other team and were the best run organization in the NHL for two decades?

being in the AHL at 20-21 is not a bad thing...more often then not its the way to go

When they were winning Cups with Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Zetterburg, aand HOF players like Draper, Chelios & Hasek?

Yeah, no kidding they kept their youth in the AHL. But they still found room for a few of them.