[News] Stan Bowman resigns after 2010 sexual abuse investigation

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Well, it’s clearer now:

“I’ve witnessed meetings, right after I reported it to James Gary, that were held in Joel Quenneville’s office. There’s absolutely no way that he can deny knowing it and there’s absolutely no way that Stan Bowman would make up a quote like that, to somebody who served his organization and his team so well.”

OK, but that still does not mean that G went to Q and said "A assaulted JD". Do we know, on balance of probability at least, for civil purposes, that Q was aware that it was an "assault" thing, rather than a "sex" thing? It was certainly handled like a "sex" thing. And, again, Q's boss' boss said "I will take care of it", so what is the onus on Q? I raised it in my long post, but if you are a middle manager, an issue is reported, and the Overlord says "I will deal with it. You work", what is the onus on you???

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Ped

You really think Joel Quenneville can't get rid of a bubble on his roster?



Really?


Bizarre take.

What I am saying is that in these type of scenarios where this isn't performance based, the firing goes up the chain because of the potential fallout.

Clearly this wasn't handled well as we are discussing this in 2021 and the actions were awful. This notion that AGM's should have fired somebody or that Q should have fired this guy isn't rooted in reality.

This isn't a situation where you just payout the remainder of the contract like virtually every other coaching or GM firing and than they go onto different teams.

If in a hypothetical scenario the firing and accusation of sexual assault wasn't warranted and wasn't factual, than a wrongful dismissal lawsuit and defamation suit could also follow from the employee side for future losses. If ownership is suppose to be then paying out millions, than ownership is going to want some answers.

I don't want to confuse or compare the two situations, but look at Bertuzzi and Steve Moore incident. We have players saying coaches told them to do this and that and than we have the organization and management saying different things and nobody taking responsibility. It turns into a massive mess and a nightmare for the victim.

If we look at the Bill Peter's situation, we can bet our butts that everybody was looking at getting this situation correct and protected across the board. Flames ownership looking at this closely due to costs and lawsuits, management the same the the Peter's camp for their own interests. This is exactly why the NHL came up with their policy afterwards to have teams report these things through proper channels. That way some bozo's decision doesn't end up causing additional negative attention or press/costs and headaches for the league as a whole.

Like I have said to others who demand that Chevy and others "do something" if you don't have the power or the authority than what are you actually doing?

I am not defending the Hawks but some of the bickering is getting lost in what power specific people may have.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by curves2000

What I am saying is that in these type of scenarios where this isn't performance based, the firing goes up the chain because of the potential fallout.

Clearly this wasn't handled well as we are discussing this in 2021 and the actions were awful. This notion that AGM's should have fired somebody or that Q should have fired this guy isn't rooted in reality.

This isn't a situation where you just payout the remainder of the contract like virtually every other coaching or GM firing and than they go onto different teams.

If in a hypothetical scenario the firing and accusation of sexual assault wasn't warranted and wasn't factual, than a wrongful dismissal lawsuit and defamation suit could also follow from the employee side for future losses. If ownership is suppose to be then paying out millions, than ownership is going to want some answers.

I don't want to confuse or compare the two situations, but look at Bertuzzi and Steve Moore incident. We have players saying coaches told them to do this and that and than we have the organization and management saying different things and nobody taking responsibility. It turns into a massive mess and a nightmare for the victim.

If we look at the Bill Peter's situation, we can bet our butts that everybody was looking at getting this situation correct and protected across the board. Flames ownership looking at this closely due to costs and lawsuits, management the same the the Peter's camp for their own interests. This is exactly why the NHL came up with their policy afterwards to have teams report these things through proper channels. That way some bozo's decision doesn't end up causing additional negative attention or press/costs and headaches for the league as a whole.

Like I have said to others who demand that Chevy and others "do something" if you don't have the power or the authority than what are you actually doing?

I am not defending the Hawks but some of the bickering is getting lost in what power specific people may have.

They all have the power to say "him or me" and put themselves on the line for the better. You want to bury this? Fine I'm out. The exodus of an assistant coach, or the sitting out of a high profile player would have been a much larger "distraction". Make the brass choose between the video coach and someone "more valuable" than the Black Ace.

People have to be willing to put themselves in the line of fire.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Coach

They all have the power to say "him or me" and put themselves on the line for the better. You want to bury this? Fine I'm out. The exodus of an assistant coach, or the sitting out of a high profile player would have been a much larger "distraction". Make the brass choose between the video coach and someone "more valuable" than the Black Ace.

People have to be willing to put themselves in the line of fire.

This part is 100% accurate but the issue is how many people are willing to do it with their own livelihoods? Usually not very many. Which goes back to my original point in some ways.

We see this with vaccination, with the corporate world and with other issues of the day such as racism, LGBTQ issues, gender equality and more. When it's your own dollar and paycheck at stake, very few end up taking stand and costing themselves a fortune or sinking their career.

Sure a few here and there may do but they are the few. Most people when it comes to workplace issues such as these type of things just play dumb, turn a blind eye or worse.

It's not good but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen or the mostly used option by people.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by curves2000

This part is 100% accurate but the issue is how many people are willing to do it with their own livelihoods? Usually not very many. Which goes back to my original point in some ways.

We see this with vaccination, with the corporate world and with other issues of the day such as racism, LGBTQ issues, gender equality and more. When it's your own dollar and paycheck at stake, very few end up taking stand and costing themselves a fortune or sinking their career.

Sure a few here and there may do but they are the few. Most people when it comes to workplace issues such as these type of things just play dumb, turn a blind eye or worse.

It's not good but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen or the mostly used option by people.

If Joel Quenneville for example had made a stand, do you really think the Chicago Blackhawks, two rounds from a Stanley Cup, would have picked the video coach over him?


He had all sorts of power. He chose to not use and to tell them to shove it under the carpet.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Ped

If Joel Quenneville for example had made a stand, do you really think the Chicago Blackhawks, two rounds from a Stanley Cup, would have picked the video coach over him?


He had all sorts of power. He chose to not use and to tell them to shove it under the carpet.

Exactly. “No distractions”.

Well… that “distraction” was a kid. A human being. It’s all so gross.

[Mr.Coffee]

At minimum you remove the video coach from having access to players, you suspend him, conduct an investigation and inform the police about allegations of a rape. None of these necessarily expose you to liability via wrongful dismissal.

To leave a rapist hanging around young men (ie putting them at risk and potential life altering harm) is not a good idea but maybe I’m just new fashioned. If the organization cared about its players it would not leave a rapist to wander around while they fumbled around prognosticating on the validity of the claims due to how ####ing serious they are.

If you think these people were all powerless you are delusional and the worst part about this whole thing is there is absolutely zero chance ownership did not know (and by extension I am thinking the NHL in general). That’s why people are so pissed. It’s so damn obvious this goes deep.

This guys life was destroyed for basically no real good reason. The Blackhawks would have won the cup anyway.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by curves2000

This part is 100% accurate but the issue is how many people are willing to do it with their own livelihoods? Usually not very many. Which goes back to my original point in some ways.

We see this with vaccination, with the corporate world and with other issues of the day such as racism, LGBTQ issues, gender equality and more. When it's your own dollar and paycheck at stake, very few end up taking stand and costing themselves a fortune or sinking their career.

Sure a few here and there may do but they are the few. Most people when it comes to workplace issues such as these type of things just play dumb, turn a blind eye or worse.

It's not good but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen or the mostly used option by people.

You can put yourself in the line of fire when you’re the captain of the Chicago Blackhawks.

They’re not trading you. They’re not burying you. They’re not saying you’re lying.

You’re Jonathan Toews.

I don’t care if he was 21. If he didn’t know right from wrong when he saw it, he never deserved the letter in the first place.

[Wastedyouth]

It blows me away how many posters are bending over backwards to justify and defend anyone involved in this situation...

[Huntingwhale]

Just a disgusting chain of events with despicable people in positions of power shoving it under the rug in order to drag their way to a Cup Championship. Talk about selling your soul to the Devil for the ultimate prize and paying for it down the road.

Not to distract from the issue at hand, but the way the Flames handled their own Bill Peters situation should once again be commended. Quick, efficient, and 100% done with the victim in mind. What JQ did is IMO much worse and he should immediately be fired. It's disgusting that he is still behind an NHL bench. FLA needs to sack up and do the right thing before they start getting heat for some of this. Thank goodness Q wasn't hired as a head coach here when the Flames coaching vacancy was open, as many of us (myself included) were begging BT to bring coach Q here. What an absolute #### show that would be right now.

IANAL, but if criminal charges are necessary, let hell fire rain down on everyone in that organization. I used to dislike the Blackhawks simply for their on-ice play. But now that entire organization can rot from top to bottom and never ever recover from it. Let them wallow how they were before they were contenders during the 00s and never recover.

E=NG and the Canucks suck and all. But the Hawks are a straight up a disgusting organization top to bottom that deserves every ounce of shame, misery and embarrassment headed their way. I'll never cheer for any of their players who were on that roster at that time ever again.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

It blows me away how many posters are bending over backwards to justify and defend anyone involved in this situation...

It tells you allot about them doesn’t it?
This thread won’t age well.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

You can put yourself in the line of fire when you’re the captain of the Chicago Blackhawks.

They’re not trading you. They’re not burying you. They’re not saying you’re lying.

You’re Jonathan Toews.

I don’t care if he was 21. If he didn’t know right from wrong when he saw it, he never deserved the letter in the first place.

I don’t want to throw too much shade at young players (Captain or not) for not speaking up. Basically the same age as Beach and just as susceptible to the manipulation of the brass. Not coming forward now is a different story.

There were a lot of veterans and adults around that could have made the right choice. It shouldn’t come down to a 21 year old employee.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Coach

I don’t want to throw too much shade at young players (Captain or not) for not speaking up. Basically the same age as Beach and just as susceptible to the manipulation of the brass. Not coming forward now is a different story.

There were a lot of veterans and adults around that could have made the right choice. It shouldn’t come down to a 21 year old employee.

A 21 year old is not a child. We send 18 year olds to go fight wars and at 16 people are driving around machinery that weighs thousands of pounds and can kill people if used irresponsibly.

At 21 or 18 or even really 16 to be honest people do know the difference between right and wrong.

IMO what we need to change is a cultural expectation of whistle blowing if you know something. That’s the biggest thing that needs to change. If you’re mature enough to skate up to a guy in training camp and make homophobic slurs you’re mature enough to understand the difference between rape or not and what to do about it.

Speaking up in this situation is not rocket science and we are not talking about 4 or 5 year olds so we really ought to cut the crap.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

A 21 year old is not a child. We send 18 year olds to go fight wars and at 16 people are driving around machinery that weighs thousands of pounds and can kill people if used irresponsibly.

At 21 or 18 or even really 16 to be honest people do know the difference between right and wrong.

IMO what we need to change is a cultural expectation of whistle blowing if you know something. That’s the biggest thing that needs to change. If you’re mature enough to skate up to a guy in training camp and make homophobic slurs you’re mature enough to understand the difference between rape or not and what to do about it.

Speaking up in this situation is not rocket science and we are not talking about 4 or 5 year olds so we really ought to cut the crap.

I don’t disagree. I’m just saying there are a lot of layers of failure before it lands on a person who (while more influence no doubt) is under the same power dynamics as the victim and who is barely out of college. I’m much more disappointed in people like Campbell, Hossa, and Sharp.

Then once it gets to them they choose to use it as ammo for disgusting taunts and to still choose to remain silent now with the opportunity for a decade of growth, absolutely no excuse.

[bigtmac19]

nvm

[Sutter_in_law]

Why is there not more talk about Cheveldayoff?
Seems like any heat towards him is getting lost in the rage over JQ

I really hope the fingers start to get pointed his way also.

If Peter's lost his job for what he did, both of these 2 should be out of the NHL as well.

Those 2 can take their millions and GTFO. I really hope Beach gets some real money out of this, it won't fix things but at the very least maybe he can escape his mind a bit if he isnt worrying about money, and can enjoy some good times that he likely missed out from his career and life being ruined.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

It blows me away how many posters are bending over backwards to justify and defend anyone involved in this situation...

You know, I'll speak to this, because despite trying to be clear it wasn't my intention, I know a couple people took my position on JQ as a defence. And I, admittedly, was absolutely defending Toews.

After watching Kyle Beach tell his story, I feel embarrassed. Reading a report is one thing. You have multiple different stories, different angles, and in reading it you try to see the best in people and believe that people are good and honest and unless something is entirely damning, you want to believe they would have done more if they could. Wouldn't you? I don't like living in a world thinking this many people just let it happen. Reading the report, I still believe it leaves a lot to the imagination, and you can either go the optimist route with that space, or the pessimist route. I went the optimist route and I was wrong.

Hearing the story straight from the victim is different. Above all else, you believe the victim. Everything goes away. Every benefit of the doubt I gave was gone hearing Kyle Beach tell his story. And I would like to think that's the same for most people, because even despite being wrong in this situation, I'm going to maintain believing people are good and there is the best in the them. I don't know if it's necessarily fair to not compare the tone of the conversation before he told his story and after, but it's your right to do it. To me, there was an obvious shift.

I don't see anyone bending over backwards to defend anyone right now. But it's embarrassing to have offered anything that could have been seen as a defence at all. Just my two cents.

[bob-loblaw]

I don't get why JQ is still coaching.

At a bare minimum, you'd think the current roster would at least be like, 'Hmmm.... The coach puts winning above above my safety. If this happened to me he might say it's a distraction. And, he's still denying responsibility. I don't want to play for this guy.'

The NHLPA did nothing for him. And, I find it hard to believe the league didn't get a whiff of this in the past eleven years.

[Coach]

@Pepsi I agree. I don’t want what I noted to be taken as a defence of Toews, but as a point of blame at the people who should have stopped it before it even made it to the players.

I find the way the people involved are acting now, in the face of the real truth, to be overall repugnant.

[Samonadreau]

I dont think anything will happen to JQ or Chevy unless the organizations they work for now decide to do something.