Seven Days in Kabul

[Baron von Kriterium]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

This is what I don't get. How can the US withdraw expecting the Afghan government to not fall? Biden said it wouldn't.

Now he is blaming hem
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/16/polit...ech/index.html

Could it be they live in an imaginary world?

The USA locked the Afghan government in a death spiral since 2018. Many thousands of Afghans were killed or wounded fighting the jihadis as Washington pursued a delusional peace process. The Taliban’s offensive that started on 1 May this year and the ANDSF was already hollowed out. Furthermore, the USA ensured the ANDSF’s failure by forcing Kabul to fight for a draw while the Taliban fought for victory. As I previously pointed out, the Afghans took huge casualties over time, and especially since the USA signed the phony “peace” deal with the Taliban in February 2020.

ANDSF and other Afghan officials were demoralized by the American "peace" deal with the Taliban in Feb 2020. Between this time and 1 May 21, the Taliban spent that time buying off and wooing disaffected commanders and officials.

The Trump administration granted a lot of legitimacy to the Taliban, even pretending that it was America’s counterterrorism partner. Both Trump &
Pompeo made the absurd claim that the Taliban was now on America’s side in what was formerly known as the war on terror. If you are an ANA commander, and you see a Secretary of State endorse the Taliban as his counterterrorism partner in Doha, while the President of the United States wants to invite the Taliban to Camp David, what are you going to think?

The Trump administration locked Kabul out of the talks, while granting concessions to the Taliban, including an uneven prisoner swap that freed 5,000 jihadis from Afghan prisons. Some of them quickly returned to the fight. If you're an Afghan soldier or a cop, you're probably looking at your friend and asking, "what the feck?"

Certainly, there is much to criticize with respect to the ANDSF in general and, in particular, the US military's attempt to stand up the ANDSF. See all of the reporting by SIGARHQ https://www.sigar.mil/
But the ANDSF’s failures didn’t occur in an Afghan-only vacuum. The end game was also a direct result of American incompetence. So, yes, the ANDSF had its problems, but we should be clear about how this end game really played out and America’s own culpability.

In his deal with the Taliban, Trump demanded the safe exit of Americans, which really wasn't necessary at all. After all, Obama drew down from 100,000 to less than 10,000 without a deal. Moreover, the Taliban was always willing to grant America’s withdrawal/surrender. Thus, the USA could’ve left without endorsing the Taliban.

What I find problematic is the idea that Biden and his team were just asking the Afghans to “fight for themselves.” My point is that the Afghans were fighting for themselves and did so until there wasn't any point anymore. And to state the ANA only lasted one day is fundamentally wrong. And for others to suggest that US airpower would have been the difference, well, there was a peace deal between the USA and Taliban, part of which required that the USA withdraw by 1 May 21 and that neither party would attack each other. So, on that one day when the Americans attacked the Taliban with B-52s, they were in violation of the peace deal while also being in violation because they hadn't withdrawn yet.

[Baron von Kriterium]

The Uzbeks are now a regional air power.

https://www.dailysabah.com/world/asi...rcraft-to-land

"Uzbekistan said in a statement late Monday that it carried out the "forced landing" of 46 Afghan aircraft crossing into its airspace as the Taliban took control of Afghanistan and a transitional government is formed.

"Hundreds of Afghan soldiers fled to Uzbekistan with 22 military planes and 24 helicopters last weekend, including one aircraft that collided with an escorting Uzbek fighter jet, causing both to crash, the Central Asian country's officials added.

"The Uzbek Ministry of Defense earlier also said an Afghan military jet had been shot down after crossing the border.

"A total of 585 Afghan soldiers have arrived on aircraft and 158 more crossed the border on foot on Sunday, the Uzbek prosecutor general's office said in a statement."

[VladtheImpaler]

Those were used in Vietnam weren't they?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Pretty sure it's universally agreed that the war was a bad idea.

But if you are already going to tuck tail and run, at least have a plan to take the people with you who helped you along the way. Afghan interpreters and other citizens who were employed by the West/Nato. Considering the pictures we saw on the tarmac, it's almost certain that death or torture that awaits them at the hands of the Taliban.

A disgusting lack of leadership by the west to not have a plan to save these folks as they leave Afghanistan to their own devices. Tragic.

You can't break faith with the people that help you. Its a horrible thing, the Gurkas who acted as embassy security were basically told, thanks for your service, you are on your own. That's horrific.


With the interpreters there were some that actually arrived at the airport and were turned back, horrible


When you break faith, you aren't trustworthy in the eyes of your allies now or in the future.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

You can't break faith with the people that help you. Its a horrible thing, the Gurkas who acted as embassy security were basically told, thanks for your service, you are on your own. That's horrific.


With the interpreters there were some that actually arrived at the airport and were turned back, horrible


When you break faith, you aren't trustworthy in the eyes of your allies now or in the future.

This. The last administration screwed over all America's allies from the Europeans all the way to the Kurds.

The Chinese are already using this in their propaganda with State Media threatening Taiwan w/ reunification while stating "look to Afghanistan to see how the US treats it's allies".

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

This. The last administration screwed over all America's allies from the Europeans all the way to the Kurds.

The Chinese are already using this in their propaganda with State Media threatening Taiwan w/ reunification while stating "look to Afghanistan to see how the US treats it's allies".

It's worse than that. Creating doubt in the mind of your allies is bad, creating doubt in the mind of your enemy is worse... What if China or Russia decide to take a risk now, that they would not have otherwise taken, which leads to...

[Nyah]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

This. The last administration screwed over all America's allies from the Europeans all the way to the Kurds.

The Chinese are already using this in their propaganda with State Media threatening Taiwan w/ reunification while stating "look to Afghanistan to see how the US treats it's allies".

While blame for this absolutely belongs at the foot of the Trump administration, I think a hefty bit of blame also goes to the Biden admin. At the end of the day this deadline came down to his admin's deadline and was catastrophically executed.

You're right: China is absolutely loving this.

[speede5]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Those were used in Vietnam weren't they?

The Super-Tucano is an excellent aircraft and one we considered for Canada. Hardly vietnam era.

[Baron von Kriterium]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Those were used in Vietnam weren't they?

The A-29? No, they are modern - early 2000s and Afghanistan received their about six years ago.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Slava

I don't know, you posted both of these comments, but it seems like two entirely opposing thoughts?

The government has been dragging their heels the last week not approving the resources to get people out. There are multiple reports on that.

The 'surprise' in all of this leads back to all the rhetoric the past few years over how none of this could ever happen once we left the country. Quite obviously nobody was prepared for it.

Does that excuse the actions of our government once things went sideways?

You sound like a politician.

[Nyah]

Literal ghoul.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1427373090733019140

https://twitter.com/user/status/1427275592383205382

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Nyah

While blame for this absolutely belongs at the foot of the Trump administration, I think a hefty bit of blame also goes to the Biden admin. At the end of the day this deadline came down to his admin's deadline and was catastrophically executed.

You're right: China is absolutely loving this.

China held more drills today, it might be time soon.

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/...ns-2021-08-17/

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by speede5

The Super-Tucano is an excellent aircraft and one we considered for Canada. Hardly vietnam era.

In what capacity? What use would the air force have for a prop driven airplane of that size?

[Canadianman]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1427622847443243009


In case anyone is unsure about:


(a) why this 'war' occurred for the past 20 years;
(b) why billions of dollars worth of arms and equipment was abandoned; or
(c) whether or not the US use the "armed Taliban" threat as an excuse to continue to bomb/drone strike Afghanistan.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Nyah

Literal ghoul.

Wow, what a c-word.

[zamler]

Why did the U.S. leave so much military hardware behind? Are they trying to ignite a full blown war?

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by zamler

Why did the U.S. leave so much military hardware behind? Are they trying to ignite a full blown war?

So when they start the next war they have to buy all new gear from Boeing, Lockheed, etc. They don't call it the military industrial complex for nothing.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

In what capacity? What use would the air force have for a prop driven airplane of that size?

Low cost high fuel efficiency Can carry a poop ton of different ground attack weapons. Its lower speed means it can be very responsive for close in air support.



Its excellent against should fired and man portable sams so its brilliant against someone like the Taliban.



Its fairly low tech and easy to maintain and repair.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Pretty sure it's universally agreed that the war was a bad idea.

But if you are already going to tuck tail and run, at least have a plan to take the people with you who helped you along the way. Afghan interpreters and other citizens who were employed by the West/Nato. Considering the pictures we saw on the tarmac, it's almost certain that death or torture that awaits them at the hands of the Taliban.

A disgusting lack of leadership by the west to not have a plan to save these folks as they leave Afghanistan to their own devices. Tragic.

I struggle to see how it was logistically possible to get all Afghans that worked for or with the Coalition out.

What was the estimate of individuals that needed to be taken out of the country?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

So when they start the next war they have to buy all new gear from Boeing, Lockheed, etc. They don't call it the military industrial complex for nothing.

There won't be a next time unless something happens to a Nato partner or a terrorist attack the in US. People wanted this over.