[News] Jack Eichel Vs. The Buffalo Sabres

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Which top-pairing g defenseman do you propose the Flames target? How likely are they to be moved by their current team?

The one that always comes to mind is Matt Dumba

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

WE DON'T KNOW WHY, and your bloviating on this topic is the furthest thing from convincing.

Oh stop discouraging him, it's funny to read

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I am not impressed either, but bona fide 1st line centres are rarer than unicorns. We have seen quite a lot of movement in top pairing D-men move around over the last handful of years.

Yea I know that’s the challenge… I mean I want Eichel as much as the next guy but just trying to think outside the box

[TheIronMaiden]

These Eichel threads remind me of the dozens of Gaudreau threads we had while waiting for him to sign. The only thing we are missing is Echielovertime.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

These Eichel threads remind me of the dozens of Gaudreau threads we had while waiting for him to sign. The only thing we are missing is Echielovertime.

Look! It's our new Jarmoe!

[VladtheImpaler]

Who is the Flames neuro consult these days? I know Van Zuiden was their orth for a long time, but I think he is done with that. Does anyone know who the Flames talk to now?

[Draug]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

These Eichel threads remind me of the dozens of Gaudreau threads we had while waiting for him to sign. The only thing we are missing is Echielovertime.

No doubt ... the other one is approaching 200,000 views.

When was the last time there was a thread bigger than E=NG?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What is so great about a local expert? In the end—and without knowing anything about him, it is another voice among a sea of informed opinions.

It's not just the local expertise, its the fact that this expertise aligns with the guidance provided by neurosurgeons around the country/world. What the Sabres have recommended is alignment with the recommendations of neurosurgeons from around the globe. But Eichel has found one guy that is willing to roll the dice, on Eichel's neck and future, and we should accept that position? The pragmatic thing is to look for a history of success and follow that route. A $50 million asset is something you don't roll the dice on. That's the point.

I want to preface this by saying that I greatly appreciate the insight provided by 2macinnes2 to this discussion. I feel much better informed about this situation and it has given me a lot to think about. But then again, after listening to Dr. Prusmack on Friedman's podcast, it also seems to me that there is not a consensus among the qualified experts about the risks and long-term effects of this procedure. (To say nothing for the fact that this "guest" has performed the debated procedure over a thousand times, and very successfully on elite level athletes in contact sports.)

I will call bull#### on that. How may high performance athletes require this type of surgery? Not many. So to say he's performed it on over 1,000 performance athletes sounds like bull####. If this person was the best in the industry, then maybe I could see a thousand procedures being performed, but I even find that specious. Most patients will never get to the point of needing this type of surgery, so if he is peddling this as his numbers, I would be extremely suspicious of him and his recommendations. Spinal surgery is a last resort.

So, without actually knowing either of these guys (I am also assuming that you don't know either 2macinnes2 or Chad Prusmack), I have no way to judge at all whose opinion in this matter is the correct one. But then again, I sure as hell am not so arrogant as to assume at the outset that the locality of one is immediately the best one.

Oh yes you are. You just won't admit it.

I really think that the best thing to do in this situation would be for everyone involved to listen to a range of informed opinions on the matter, and make a decision on that basis for that individual.

We agree. I'm not taking the word of the individual who wants to do the surgery. I'm asking for second opinions, which the Sabres have done. I'm also asking for third, and fourth, and fifth opinions on this surgery, and based on the information immediately available, the opinion is this surgery is highly risky and the pause button should be hit. Let the Flames do their own due diligence and make the decision. If Treliving believes things align, that is good enough for me, because he is putting his professional life on the line. He ####s this up, and he never works in professional sports again. He'll be running one of his dad's pizza stores in some backwater burg, telling stories of the time he ####ed up an NHL franchise. So if he makes the call and assumes this responsibility, awesome! We know who to blame if those goes sideways and who will go down in the record books as the guy that destroyed the Calgary Flames franchise.

[FlamesAddiction]

I think an important factor to keep in mind is that Buffalo has the most invested in Eichel. If they picked the surgery option as a hill to die on, their concern must be real. Some of the posts read like people think Buffalo are just a bunch of Jack hating meanies, but if this issue is enough to make them rather lose the player, you have to consider that they have a good reason to be concerned.

[Lanny_McDonald]

They have 50 million reasons to be concerned.

[FlamesAddiction]

I just wanted to point out that our local neurosurgeon expert only said that there is reason to be concerned about the surgery, but not that it was necessarily the wrong decision either.

I would hate to think that he/she stops posting on the topic because the message gets misconstrued.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

It's not just the local expertise, its the fact that this expertise aligns with the guidance provided by neurosurgeons around the country/world. What the Sabres have recommended is alignment with the recommendations of neurosurgeons from around the globe. But Eichel has found one guy that is willing to roll the dice, on Eichel's neck and future, and we should accept that position? The pragmatic thing is to look for a history of success and follow that route. A $50 million asset is something you don't roll the dice on. That's the point.



I will call bull#### on that. How may high performance athletes require this type of surgery? Not many. So to say he's performed it on over 1,000 performance athletes sounds like bull####. If this person was the best in the industry, then maybe I could see a thousand procedures being performed, but I even find that specious. Most patients will never get to the point of needing this type of surgery, so if he is peddling this as his numbers, I would be extremely suspicious of him and his recommendations. Spinal surgery is a last resort.



Oh yes you are. You just won't admit it.



We agree. I'm not taking the word of the individual who wants to do the surgery. I'm asking for second opinions, which the Sabres have done. I'm also asking for third, and fourth, and fifth opinions on this surgery, and based on the information immediately available, the opinion is this surgery is highly risky and the pause button should be hit. Let the Flames do their own due diligence and make the decision. If Treliving believes things align, that is good enough for me, because he is putting his professional life on the line. He ####s this up, and he never works in professional sports again. He'll be running one of his dad's pizza stores in some backwater burg, telling stories of the time he ####ed up an NHL franchise. So if he makes the call and assumes this responsibility, awesome! We know who to blame if those goes sideways and who will go down in the record books as the guy that destroyed the Calgary Flames franchise.

I find it odd that you're willing to accept Treliving's actions because he's staking his career on the decision.

...but not the actual human who would undergo the procedure and risk his actual career/livelihood.

If we acquire Eichel and it doesn't work out, it likely forces us into a (needed) rebuild. Destroys the franchise?

[mikephoen]

Destroyed the Calgary Flames franchise? haha.

If the Flames traded Monahan, Zary, Dube and a 1st round pick for Eichel, and Eichel never played a game for the Flames, would the trade still be better than the Gilmour for Leeman trade? I say probably. And even that trade didn't 'destroy the Calgary Flames franchise'.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Destroyed the Calgary Flames franchise? haha.

If the Flames traded Monahan, Zary, Dube and a 1st round pick for Eichel, and Eichel never played a game for the Flames, would the trade still be better than the Gilmour for Leeman trade? I say probably. And even that trade didn't 'destroy the Calgary Flames franchise'.

We also traded Jarome Iginla and Jay Bouwmeester and received a whopping 0 NHL players in return.

Did that destroy the organization?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I'll take our local guy over a "guest" on a pod cast thank you. Because that's exactly what the Flames would do. Consult their local expert and NOT take the word of someone who may or may not be directly associated with the Eichel camp. This is a $50M ####ing investment people. Let the team deal with their experts and make the call. So far, every team in the league disagrees with assessment on the podcast. Shocking, I know.

Our “local guy” was nowhere near dismissive of the surgery. All he really questioned was the recovery time, which was not a claim by the surgeon who is tagged with doing the procedure. It was a claim of the agent, which rightly should be taken with a grain of salt.

On the actual surgery the local MD just said there were certain risks.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

It's not just the local expertise, its the fact that this expertise aligns with the guidance provided by neurosurgeons around the country/world. What the Sabres have recommended is alignment with the recommendations of neurosurgeons from around the globe. But Eichel has found one guy that is willing to roll the dice, on Eichel's neck and future, and we should accept that position? The pragmatic thing is to look for a history of success and follow that route. A $50 million asset is something you don't roll the dice on. That's the point.

Well, it is either a lousy point, or you have argued it very poorly. As to the bolded, this is your patently shallow opinion. You don't actually have the faintest clue about where the expertise in this particular case aligns. Two points made in the podcast are that 1) this is procedure that has not been performed on a NHL player, and 2) the Buffalo Sabres are unwilling to take the risk on green-lighting the first case for the NHL. There is absolutely valid concern here, but there is also a tonne that we—the consuming public in the dark—don't know about Eichel's specific situation. There is also a first time for everything, and just because the Sabres are nervous about the risk this does not mean it is the right decision.

Another point made by the doctor was that the choice between the fusion and the artificial disc is case-specific, and he believes that in Jack Eichel's case the replacement is the best option for Eichel. Yet here you are making pontifications about stuff you don't know the first thing about for a person that you have never met.

I will call bull#### on that. How may high performance athletes require this type of surgery? Not many. So to say he's performed it on over 1,000 performance athletes sounds like bull####. If this person was the best in the industry, then maybe I could see a thousand procedures being performed, but I even find that specious. Most patients will never get to the point of needing this type of surgery, so if he is peddling this as his numbers, I would be extremely suspicious of him and his recommendations. Spinal surgery is a last resort.

*SIGH* Are you daft? Read what I said again very slowly, and more carefully:

Originally Posted by Textcritic

this "guest" has performed the debated procedure over a thousand times, and very successfully on elite level athletes in contact sports.)

There are two things going on in this sentence. One is the claim of over a thousand TOTAL procedures, and the other is the claim of successfully performed procedures on AN UNSPECIFIED NUMBER OF ELITE LEVEL ATHLETES.

Oh yes you are. You just won't admit it.

Sure thing, Lanny. I am not the one screaming my head off about the necessity of one of the surgical options over and against the certain doom spelled out by the other one.

We agree. I'm not taking the word of the individual who wants to do the surgery.

But you most certainly are disparaging the reputation of this expert, and seemingly for no other reason than that you have this total aversion to the idea of acquiring Jack Eichel. You have developed a reputation from forming very strong opinions and doubling down on them. This fits.

I'm asking for second opinions, which the Sabres have done. I'm also asking for third, and fourth, and fifth opinions on this surgery, and based on the information immediately available, the opinion is this surgery is highly risky and the pause button should be hit.

Again, I don't believe that you have an accurate sense about the number of experts who have been consulted and how they have weighed in on this particular situation. Because none of us do. We have the explanation of one neurosurgeon as to why he thinks the disc replacement is the best option for Eichel, and another opinion from a neurosurgeon as to why the procedure is risky. We don't know who the Sabres have and have not consulted. We don't know who Eichel has and has not consulted.

Let the Flames do their own due diligence and make the decision. If Treliving believes things align, that is good enough for me, because he is putting his professional life on the line. He ####s this up, and he never works in professional sports again. He'll be running one of his dad's pizza stores in some backwater burg, telling stories of the time he ####ed up an NHL franchise. So if he makes the call and assumes this responsibility, awesome! We know who to blame if those goes sideways and who will go down in the record books as the guy that destroyed the Calgary Flames franchise.

Yes. More screaming. I expected as much.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I find it odd that you're willing to accept Treliving's actions because he's staking his career on the decision.

...but not the actual human who would undergo the procedure and risk his actual career/livelihood.

If we acquire Eichel and it doesn't work out, it likely forces us into a (needed) rebuild. Destroys the franchise?

Hahaha. Maybe ask Jay Feaster or Doug Risebrough what their legacy is? Feaster will always be remembered as the guy who traded away Jarome Iginla, and got peanuts for him, even though it was Iginla who mandated the return. Risebrough always remembered for the Leeman trade. Feaster and Risebrough are persona non grata in these parts because they did what was needed to be done. A lot of people saw that as destroying the team in both instances and it took years to recover. Imagine how people are going to feel about trading for a player that maybe doesn't play again, and does so by trading two high end roster players, and a at least two 1st round picks. Our window for rebuild is immediately lengthened and we don't come out of this for a eight to ten years. The Flames become the laughing stock of the NHL, on the same levels of Buffalo and Edmonton. A decade in trying to rebuild will be his legacy. I would say that based on historical reactions that people will suggest Treliving destroyed the franchise.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Hahaha. Maybe ask Jay Feaster or Doug Risebrough what their legacy is? Feaster will always be remembered as the guy who traded away Jarome Iginla, and got peanuts for him, even though it was Iginla who mandated the return. Risebrough always remembered for the Leeman trade. Feaster and Risebrough are persona non grata in these parts because they did what was needed to be done. A lot of people saw that as destroying the team in both instances and it took years to recover. Imagine how people are going to feel about trading for a player that maybe doesn't play again, and does so by trading two high end roster players, and a at least two 1st round picks. Our window for rebuild is immediately lengthened and we don't come out of this for a eight to ten years. The Flames become the laughing stock of the NHL, on the same levels of Buffalo and Edmonton. A decade in trying to rebuild will be his legacy. I would say that based on historical reactions that people will suggest Treliving destroyed the franchise.

You sure use a lot of hyperbole in your posts.

Risebrough and Feasted were bad GMs, but I’ve never heard anyone describe them as having ‘destroyed the franchise’.

[devo22]

with the draft, salary cap and so on in place, I honestly don't think you can "destroy" a franchise. Set back? Sure. But you can always bounce back.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Destroyed the Calgary Flames franchise? haha.

If the Flames traded Monahan, Zary, Dube and a 1st round pick for Eichel, and Eichel never played a game for the Flames, would the trade still be better than the Gilmour for Leeman trade? I say probably. And even that trade didn't 'destroy the Calgary Flames franchise'.

Agreed

Boring passionless hockey is a bigger threat. With Sutter here we don't have to worry about that for at least two more years.