Do not forget that Keenan’s last year, the team had people playing in the playoffs with broken ribs/hands/feet, and it was the owners, not Darryl, that made the decision to fire him.
Brent tried to have a stifling system but Ward certainly doesn’t. They do try to collapse and give away the outside but at the same time they don’t really protect the slot. Yesterday Nesterov and Valimaki appeared to be where the O’s go on the whiteboard in defense 101, while Edmonton was hanging out right in front of the goalie. If this team was stifling we wouldn’t be talking about how Markstrom has kept them in games.
Unless you meant stifling their own offense. Then yes
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I think it's Treliving's latest attempt to tell the players there won't be changes and that this is how its going to be.
The players probably don't buy that but I doubt they scoff at his lack of pro playing experience as the reason.
Treliving said the players asked for Ward to stay on as coach in the off-season. I have a hard time believing they've completely changed their tune on that a little more than a quarter into the season.
The players aren't playing to get a coach fired. This is just what Ward's system looks like, and it has literally gotten worse every game.
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Honestly, I've been a big Treliving supporter for years.
But, Johnny Gaudreau's most recent RWers:
Buddy Robinson
Josh Leivo
Dominik Simon.
WOOF.
It's inexcusable that this is still an issue on this team.
I feel sorry for Buddy Robinson when he has to play with butter-soft Gaudreau. We actually need more players like Buddy who can hit, skate, fight when needed and give us an actual identity. Tkachuk would be a better player with some grit support instead of having to play 2 roles simultaneously.
Treliving said the players asked for Ward to stay on as coach in the off-season. I have a hard time believing they've completely changed their tune on that a little more than a quarter into the season.
The players aren't playing to get a coach fired. This is just what Ward's system looks like, and it has literally gotten worse every game.
Fair enough. I just think he's trying to put the onus on the players and I don't think his lack of playing experience plays into how they feel.
Ultimately Treliving is the architect of this team so the buck stops there.
The "cheap owners" tidbits we hear about here are not an excuse either. It's Treliving's job to convince the owners to spend. If they capped him, that's on him because they probably don't trust his judgement.
All that said, I would be willing to keep him on, but keep a short leash on him. Build a plan and stick to it. No more bargain hunting for the sake of making deals. I feel like he did not put enough focus on what's really needed while he is on just about every FA from college and very active otherwise/
Early on he said he wanted to build a big and tough team and the team needed a starting G. He failed on both fronts and to make things worse, he kept wasting $$$, time and development opportunities on half measures.
Need a starting goalie for long term? Don't sign other team's cast offs or KHL "gems" and try to kick the can down the road. Focus and pay up for what you really want.
Need big and tough wingers? Do not waste time and money on Spencer Foo or Austin Czarnik. These are such long shots and even if they somehow are good enough to play limited minutes on the team, it is not what you really needed in the first place.
Treliving has been a very busy GM, but a lot of his moves seemed to be shots in the dark with no real plan to follow.
So in short, make a plan to build a team with an identity or an attribute that you want the team to be know for and work towards it. Open the wallet and spend on actual difference makers.
There was a recent post that hit the nail on the head. I can’t recall who said it:
This season’s format, essentially mini-playoff series, has totally exposed the Flames’ weaknesses, both in terms of personnel and coaching. Other teams have shown they can quickly adjust whereas Ward and Company have no answers. It’s going to get worse as the season goes on and other teams continue to improve. We haven’t seen OTT yet but as far as the North goes, let alone the other divisions, there’s no way the Flames can take a seven game series against any of the teams even if Jacob Markstrom stands on his head.
EDIT: Was Roof-Daddy in the Blow it Up thread.
Last edited by Manhattanboy; 02-21-2021 at 01:58 PM.
I don't think the Flames ownership is against spending on a coach in principle.
Darryl Sutter wasn't a "cheap" coach. Brent Sutter wasn't cheap. Hartley wasn't cheap when he signed his extension. Bill Peters wasn't a bargain bin coach either. Before the Flames hired Gulutzan, it was widely reported that they interviewed Carlyle twice, and he wouldn't have come cheap.
I do think the they are against wasting their money on coaches though, which is what this franchise seems to do. There is so much wrong with the way this team has mismanaged coaching and GM hires, it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy now.
I still think it all goes back to Treliving firing Hartley. It sent the message that despite being a very young, rebuilding team, that there were very high and immediate results expected.
I don't believe for a second, that Gulutzan was the guy Treliving wanted from the start. He was very likely going for one of the more established guys like Boudreau or Carlyle, but both chose to go elsewhere. I would not be surprised if part of the reason they spurned the Flames was because dismissing Hartley set a standard that was unattainable. It was then reported to be down to Gulutzan and Rierden, Treliving panicked and went with the guy who at least had some NHL head coaching experience. We can argue all day on whether Hartley was a good coach or not, but canning him sent a clear message to any future candidate that despite being a young rebuilding team, there was a very high bar for results. Good coaches are sought after, and sought after coaches have choices in where they go. Why would any of them choose the Flames after that?
It was a huge miscalculation by Treliving and one that the results are still playing out. I don't think the slate gets wiped clean until Treliving is dismissed at this point.
It also doesn't help that Treliving's future with the team is probably shaky at this point. If a head coach that has choices is picking a destination, they are going to go with the more stable situation. Why would you go to an organization that could have a regime change soon?
At this point, I also imagine Treliving doesn't want a coach that is bigger than him, because then he has no more excuses. One more reason he needs to go.
Sorry, I know those are pretty scattered thoughts, but the bottom line is that I don't think the coaching situation can resolve until there is a regime change. Reputation matters. And yeah, I agree that part of it now has something to do with the owners taking the keys away from Treliving, hence why Boudreau was not considered for this year. The season was up in the air at the time and Boudreau would certainly want the standard 3-year contract. He is still getting paid this year, so why would he take less? He would be almost 70 by the time the deal ends. Do you know how many head coaches in the NHL are as old as Boudreau is? None.
Not to be a jerk, but young players probably respect younger coaches more over senior citizens. Even if Boudreau still has it, he is going to come across as an old man yelling at clouds to a young team. I think not considering Boudreau is as much a hockey decision as a financial one.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
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Ultimately Treliving is the architect of this team so the buck stops there.
The "cheap owners" tidbits we hear about here are not an excuse either. It's Treliving's job to convince the owners to spend.
What?!? No. This is not how it works. I know below is dramatization but it's based on well researched book and I've heard other executives say things like this. Even Burke once mentioned some owners come in and say our budget depends on playoff gate so there are constraints.
Quote:
Treliving has been a very busy GM, but a lot of his moves seemed to be shots in the dark with no real plan to follow.
So in short, make a plan to build a team with an identity or an attribute that you want the team to be know for and work towards it. Open the wallet and spend on actual difference makers.
This is just wrong. All of these critiques of Treliving are just emotional projections with silly assumptions and looking at things in a vacuum.
I think Treliving is extremely dilligent in this thought process - it can and does for any GM, not always work out. There is just hindsight complaints and I get it, there is frustration.
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What?!? No. This is not how it works. I know below is dramatization but it's based on well researched book and I've heard other executives say things like this. Even Burke once mentioned some owners come in and say our budget depends on playoff gate so there are constraints.
This is just wrong. All of these critiques of Treliving are just emotional projections with silly assumptions and looking at things in a vacuum.
I think Treliving is extremely dilligent in this thought process - it can and does for any GM, not always work out. There is just hindsight complaints and I get it, there is frustration.
Yeah, I think the part he got wrong was that Treliving is the GM. If anything it’s the President’s job to pitch for extra money. The GM generally just have to work within the constraints provided, and I imagine with most organizations there wouldn’t be many questions about what the budget is and where there could be wiggle room, especially in situations where the organization is owned by a corporation.
Treliving said the players asked for Ward to stay on as coach in the off-season. I have a hard time believing they've completely changed their tune on that a little more than a quarter into the season.
The players aren't playing to get a coach fired. This is just what Ward's system looks like, and it has literally gotten worse every game.
Not the best way to go about the coaching situation. If you ask the players what are they going to say? Players may like Ward but that doesn't make him the right guy and of coarse the players have responded with more poor efforts.
Don't disagree about the issues with the system, also consistency and under motivated players is a concern.
I feel sorry for Buddy Robinson when he has to play with butter-soft Gaudreau. We actually need more players like Buddy who can hit, skate, fight when needed and give us an actual identity. Tkachuk would be a better player with some grit support instead of having to play 2 roles simultaneously.
What a hilariously bad take. You feel sorry for a fringe NHL player when he has to play with a guy who has scored 462pts in 482 games.
I feel bad that Johnny has basically had a scrub on his right wing in all but 2 seasons of his career.
From a Management perspective Murray Edwards probably doesn't give too much of a crap about the Flames - first, he's an expat, second (if you believe Forbes) he's made about $300 million by way of increased value over the past dozen years or so. He's not eating dog food and isn't losing money. Or sleep.
On the other hand, it must be somewhat embarrassing (at least?) to have a team that sucks continually. Oh - wait....there's that $300 million +. Well, Brad, just try to make them not suck too much please!
Tre is all about "the process" and then completely fails his own process when he doesn't even bother to interview for a coach. The most rattled I've heard him was that 960 hit on Friday - he's worried for sure. Not certain who he is worried about? Maloney?
I don't see improvement coming. Ward is stuck on a system (whatever it's supposed to be) that is passive and waits to see what the other team is leading with. And by the time they figure it out, they're down by two and out of the game.
Tre ain't gonna fire Ward. If anyone does anything I can only see it coming from above Tre, and if/when the Flames lose 2 to Toronto and then 2 more to Ottawa, it better happen then...but by then the season is forked.
(From a personal perspective, I'm gonna watch the first 10 minutes of the first TO game, and if it sucks, I'll record it, and move to something else. Maybe watch it on replay, maybe not. Watching in real time, even in the era of "nothing" is too disheartening and a waste of time.)
I think the worst part of all of this is that when I look at how Johnny Gaudreau is playing this season and I connect the dots it seems hard to imagine that Treliving isn't going to be remembered as the guy that wasted the first (most affordable) half of Johnny Hockey's career.
We love to moan about how we haven’t been blessed with high picks, but when a player that good comes your way, you damn well better make the right moves to surround him with the talent he needs to win.
As fans we have been in dreamland if we think he is anything but the best player Flames have had since Iginla; all the fawning over Tkachuk is infuriating as he is a good player, but not yet at Johnny's level if he ever even gets there.
What a mess...
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As a longtime Flames fan I’m actually glad we’ve had Treliving in place all these years.
Big picture, he took a team with crappy depth, an empty prospect cupboard because of brutal drafting and a history of mediocre results and he’s been able to fix all of it minus the mediocrity part. It feels like a curse at this point.
He completely whiffed on the Brouwer and Neal signings and hiring Glen Gulutzan as a HC was big mistake too. Those signings brought us the current cap trouble the Flames are in so that’s all on him. I would prefer a different coach than Ward but it seems there’s more to that decision than we all know.
Firing Tre and bringing in a new GM will only shake up the coaching staff. The real problem here are a group of players that are considered the best on the team.
call me crazy, but I think he may have been joking.
If that is the case my apologies but tough to follow this forum with some of the takes I have been reading on here in the past week. A lot of emotional takes that lack logic or critical thought
I have been a supporter or Treliving for the most part. I have always been critical of his coaching hires and that might be the flaw that results in his dismissal.
I called him out for the Bill Peters hiring at the 2018 STH meeting and asked why he didn’t go after AV or Sutter. He was pretty sure of himself he found the perfect coach in Peters. It looked like he was right until the team got embarrassed by the Avs and it was clear they tuned Peters out by the time the next season rolled around.
Hated the Gulutzan hire from the get go and Ward felt like another bargain bin hire.
I like the drafting philosophy and think he has made some good adds to the team over the years. The coaching moves have always been his worst moves
As a longtime Flames fan I’m actually glad we’ve had Treliving in place all these years.
Big picture, he took a team with crappy depth, an empty prospect cupboard because of brutal drafting and a history of mediocre results and he’s been able to fix all of it minus the mediocrity part. It feels like a curse at this point.
He completely whiffed on the Brouwer and Neal signings and hiring Glen Gulutzan as a HC was big mistake too. Those signings brought us the current cap trouble the Flames are in so that’s all on him. I would prefer a different coach than Ward but it seems there’s more to that decision than we all know.
Firing Tre and bringing in a new GM will only shake up the coaching staff. The real problem here are a group of players that are considered the best on the team.
What an absolutely bad take. Treliving has crippled the development system with his trading of top picks. There is a reason why we have nothing to support our current roster from the minors, because Treliving didn't care about the organizational depth and only cared about trying to win now. He shortcut the rebuild and we are paying for it right now.
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