Flames - how to cure the rot for 2019/20

[TheScorpion]

Out of those three contracts, Stone's is the one that is both the least deleterious and also the easiest to move. A bit of a quandary, to be sure. Frolik's deal also isn't really a problem and I don't anticipate he'll be difficult to move.

I think they let Stone play out his contract. Frolik will be traded, as will Brodie. Neal is also here to stay.

[AltaGuy]

My analysis goes like so:

Gaudreau - Much of what I think has been posted above by Cliff and Flash. He needs a player (or players) who can drive the play for when space is at a premium in the playoffs. Watch Patrick Kane highlight videos from the various Hawks runs - he's the definition of an opportunistic player. Kane gets the puck and it's off his stick in a hurry to a teammate or in the net. What he's not doing is carrying the puck into the zone or is ever relied upon for puck retrieval. But other teams played him just like they do Johnny: lean on him, whack him, swarm him. It's just that Kane's job isn't to hold the puck, it's to get open - Johnny can do the same. Toews and Hossa, of course, were perfect for this - aggressive players, sound defensively, generated turnovers, strong on skates, big and fast, and moved the puck up-ice.

Monahan - He is too much of a one-dimensional player. He is slow, especially his acceleration, and so cannot be relied on to either carry the puck, retrieve the puck, or play anything but "zone" defense. His possession numbers are terrible and will remain terrible. He's deadly in tight, and he's good at finding seams as long as he doesn't need to get there quickly. His one goal these playoffs was him golfing a puck luckily into the top corner. But he didn't have many in tight shots or good looks, mostly because he wasn't fast enough to get position, or ornery enough to bull his way there. Gaudreau needs to swap roles with his centerman: Gaudreau has the puck too much in traffic, and needs to be finding space. Monahan is never going to be that guy. But I don't see a role on the second line for him either here - because Tkachuk has many of the same limitations. All three of our primary drivers of offense do: they aren't ever going to be great at carrying the puck in physical, fast games. They will all need a big-bodied, strong, fast player who can hold onto it through traffic and play good defense.

Tkachuk - He may be injured. But we also saw that he - like Monahan and Gaudreau above - has limitations in a fast and physical game. Other players need to help him generate offense, because he's not going to be great on retrieval, pursuit, or carrying the puck. He can work in tight, and get open, cause havoc, etc. - but he's just never going to be a guy who has the puck on his stick a lot.

Bennett - The most successful Flames forward in the postseason because he is fast and strong enough to carry the puck and retrieve the puck. However, with the same matchups that Monahan and Johnny had all postseason, I doubt he would be nearly as effective. He isn't that fast and he isn't that big. He also doesn't have the offensive instincts that any of the three above do, so will never score at that level. But, I do think he's made a case that he'll always be an effective top-six player in both regular and postseason.

My offseason plan - Trade Monahan. I wouldn't bump him down a line or two because Tkachuk has too many of the same negatives in his game, but is simply a better player and competitor. I would sign Kevin Hayes, not because he's better than Monahan, but because he's faster, stronger, and carries the puck. He'll produce enough with Johnny. If not Hayes, then we need to find an O'Reilly, Kopitar, Toews, or Johansen. Pretty difficult, but if we have to move out some combination of Monahan, our 1st, and a young DMan, I think we need to do it. This is one of the reasons I'm not huge on the idea of Duchene - he's not big, feisty, or defensive. He's fast, but I don't think he's enough of a compliment to Gaudreau.

If we can address 1st line C through free agency, then Monahan can get us a big-bodied and fast player to play on the second line with Tkachuk. Or he can get us futures.

tl;dr I believe that trading Monahan is the most important offseason move for us. He doesn't fulfill the needs we have on the 1st line - indeed, he hampers Gaudreau's chances for success mightily - and he isn't appropriate for the 2nd line where Tkachuk has many of the same limitations. Patrick Kane had Toews, Hossa, and Sharp doing some big lifting with the Hawks, and was able to pick his spots and capitalize. Gaudreau will need the same going forward, but is definitely skilled enough to have the same success.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

This team is now 2-12 in it's last 14 playoff games. How to cure the rot???


1) I think we have to get rid of the gutless and lazy

Monahan, Janko, Neal

2) We to trade defensive depth for help up front - we need to trade one from column Left and one from column Right

Giordano Brodie
Hanifin Andersson
Valimaki Hamonic
Kylington Stone

3) Have to acquire a franchise center for Johnny. Also need a second line RW. Trade chips include Monahan and two defensemen.

Need keep Stone and play him and get another big journeyman with a mean streak to replace Engelland.

Put Valimaki on a short leash and only give him more ice-time if he continues to play big. Right now he was the D-man with the most jam.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by burnitdown

Are you talking last year, when they lost the series 4-2 against the Preds. Mackinnon was dominant and they gave the top ranked Preds a run for their money.

I don't think there was any thought of blowing up the team after that. They improved from 48 pts to 95 pts and built up a young core from high draft picks after missing the playoffs the previous few years. I don't really think they're a comparable for us at all.

You can always get into the weeds and cherry pick things to justify whatever you want. Fact is, AVS have been a fairly similar version of growth to the Flames. We can find examples of our core playing well in the playoffs too, back in 2015. Also the AVS have never had to deal with what our core did this year, expectations of being a top seed.

Point being, you can and will justify your point around this core not being good enough if you want, but you could also do the same in the other direction, it’s called selective reasoning. Last year people were on this core will never make the playoffs train, that was clearly wrong.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

-Trade Noah Hanifin for a forward. Valimaki is already better and IMO Kylington is too which makes him redundant on that left side. Not just basing on this series, felt this way all season.


- Move Sam Bennett to center and probably first line center. Get him linemates that can play at his level and pull him up so he can pull them up.



- Get rid of Jankowski, Neal, Stone, and Frolik for cap space.


- Peters and his staff need to be that much better next year. They were not good enough down the stretch. That's really the truth.

LMAO move Bennett to first line center good lord

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

As a fan of 33 years, I don't even get upset at these playoff collapses anymore. Choking is in the makeup of the franchise, transmitted from roster to roster like venereal crabs in a dormitory couch.

So once again, let's play the How to Fix This Team in the Offseason game.

Gaudreau: He's taking a lot of unwarranted criticism. He tried to drive play. He backchecked. He played hard. But the game is called differently in the playoffs, and teams are always going to key on him. He simply isn't strong enough to power through the checks when games get tight. It is what it is. Johnny needs help. He needs another dynamic player on his line who can sometimes gain the zone and take some of the heat off him. He doesn't have it now.

The Flames should not be shopping him. But they should listen to any offers from the obvious teams out east. He may be worth more to a team trying to sell tickets than his is to the Flames.

For his part, Gaudreau could help his cause by starting to take diet and training seriously. He has enough disadvantages in the NHL without compounding them with those of his own making.

Monahan: A pure sniper who brings almost nothing to the game when he isn't sniping. When your #1C is the worst forward on your roster without the puck, you have a problem. A serious problem.

It's not easy to acquire a true #1C. A couple changed hands over the last year (O'Reilly, Duchene), so there's always a chance. Maybe a Seguin or Stamkos comes available. But the Flames might need to address the C position with depth instead, like the Preds have.

If the Flames do decide to move on from Monahan, his contract will certainly make him attractive, especially to teams with low payroll budgets (Arizona, Carolina, Anaheim). Of course, teams are going to wonder how much of Monahan's production has been down to playing with Gaudreau.

Goaltending: Was this Smith's swan song, or do the Flames re-sign him for another season until they know what they have in Rittich? This position is still clear as mud. The Coyotes might be willing to let one of Raanta or Kuemper go, given the strong play both have shown.

Coaching: Peters did a great job with this team, bringing structure that played to the strengths of the roster. Never let the team fall into a long swoon. But he was schooled by Bednar in this series. He had no solution to the Avs forecheck that disrupted any efforts to transition the pucks to forward with speed. He had four games to figure out counter-tactics, and failed.

This was his first playoffs as a head coach. Hopefully he'll learn how to gameplan for a series and adapt once the series gets underway.

Treliving: Has enough playoff games with this core to identify where the weaknesses are. Heat seems to be on from ownership, so expect his moves to be of the Win Now kind. I'm skeptical we'll be making a pick in the first round.

Move on from: Brodie will find a home somewhere, either for picks or as part of a package for a centre. Seems like Peters isn't a fan of Frolik, so expect him to be moved. Jankowski does not seem able to elevate his game, and PK specialists need to bring some energy to their game 5 on 5. Neal is unmovable.

Targets: Kevin Hayes, Nazim Kadri, Jason Zucker, Darcy Kuemper.

Great post! Would still like to see a younger upgrade on Smith.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by CGY12

May be unpopular but I look at trading BOTH Brodie and Giordano. A team might just be willing to over pay to acquire the Norris trophy winner (i think) and we can address the forward issue (top 6 speed and 1 shot scoring ability). I can appreciate all he's done for the franchise but the organization needs to start prioritizing winning the cup above anything else. Part of doing that is moving on from players and capitalizing on their value when its high. The franchise always seems to hold on till the bitter end, only to try when they have no choice and are worth peanuts (Phanuef, Iginla, Bouwmeester, Regehr, etc.).

Now i'm not pinning the playoff performance on Gio but we've seen what he's capable of in the playoffs. We look damn good on D with the likes of Valamaki, Kylington, Andersson, Hanifin. Turn the keys over to them. Sign a cheaper UFA who can bring in some grit and toughness (but also has the ability to skate) and run with these 4 as your top 2 D pairings.

We don’t agree on much, but I’m actually with you on the Gio front. Not because I don’t think he’s good, but because of what you said about our young D and akso despite his apparent defiance of time, I’m just waiting for the wheels to fall off age wise and after this season I think we could still get a kings ransom for him that would help enormously.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I think what you are failing to acknowledge is lifecycle point of the team and correlation to deadline moves. This is the first year BT has likely thought it even worth considering a deadline move to improve the club, and certainly the first it would have potentially helped. He didn’t like the prices or he got outbid this year.....but I don’t think we know that he needs to change his strategy, we still need to see what it is now we have a team fully in its window.

This is the problem with cheering for an org. tgat has not delivered much playoff success over the decades, the fans base patience and timelines are often miss aligned with realities of the current version of the team, which puts pressure on everyone from manager to players to have to be ahead of schedule or feel like they need to make up for others failures.

I view it as three seasons of deadline failure. This year the team didn't add the right pieces at the deadline. Maybe they were shopping and were out bid? Maybe guys didn't want to come to Calgary? Maybe they didn't want to spend what was required? In any case I view those as Management failures. Last year, if I recall correctly, the Flames were a wild card bubble team going into the deadline. They could have been in on the deadline action and made a strong push for the playoffs but they sat back and watched and had a terrible stretch drive causing them to miss the playoffs. 2017 was the same sit back and watch attitude at the deadline with a team that was borderline playoff contention.

Treliving, or whomever, is just too timid to make bold moves at the right times.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I view it as three seasons of deadline failure. This year the team didn't add the right pieces at the deadline. Maybe they were shopping and were out bid? Maybe guys didn't want to come to Calgary? Maybe they didn't want to spend what was required? In any case I view those as Management failures. Last year, if I recall correctly, the Flames were a wild card bubble team going into the deadline. They could have been in on the deadline action and made a strong push for the playoffs but they sat back and watched and had a terrible stretch drive causing them to miss the playoffs. 2017 was the same sit back and watch attitude at the deadline with a team that was borderline playoff contention.

Treliving, or whomever, is just too timid to make bold moves at the right times.

I think you could be right about this year. But last years team was not worth paying deadline deal prices on to squeak into the playoffs. I also think BT correctly identified not selling the future of this team short when the window hadn’t really begun. If this years team required tweaking to have playoff success (and it clearly did) last years team would have required a complete overhaul because it was half the team this years version was. Literally knowing what we know because we’ve actually seen the results, how can you possibly have wanted BT to waste our future to maybe squeak in last year? That would be repeating the failures of the Sutter era Flames, I’m glad he didn’t do tgat.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by CGY12

May be unpopular but I look at trading BOTH Brodie and Giordano. A team might just be willing to over pay to acquire the Norris trophy winner (i think) and we can address the forward issue (top 6 speed and 1 shot scoring ability). I can appreciate all he's done for the franchise but the organization needs to start prioritizing winning the cup above anything else. Part of doing that is moving on from players and capitalizing on their value when its high. The franchise always seems to hold on till the bitter end, only to try when they have no choice and are worth peanuts (Phanuef, Iginla, Bouwmeester, Regehr, etc.).

Now i'm not pinning the playoff performance on Gio but we've seen what he's capable of in the playoffs. We look damn good on D with the likes of Valamaki, Kylington, Andersson, Hanifin. Turn the keys over to them. Sign a cheaper UFA who can bring in some grit and toughness (but also has the ability to skate) and run with these 4 as your top 2 D pairings.

Great post and I hope the organization is this forward thinking. I also don't think another year older Gio will have a Norris caliber season again next year. He's not going to fall off a cliff but I don't think he'll be at quite the same level. At some point age catches up. I could talk about the sentimentality about keeping him around, but that stuff is irrelevant. Just like you said, time to prioritize winning.

[Thunderball]

To me, there's something very, very off between Monahan and Gaudreau. Both are high value assets, but both seem to have some key deficiencies. Going forward, if both are on the Flames in 19/20, they should be on different lines.

I don't think Giordano had a bad playoff series, but he certainly wasn't good, and he has to wear some of the blame as captain for the mental breakdown evident. I've heard he's a quiet captain, and that's clearly not a good thing when the going gets tough.

As an offseason plan, I think the first step is to know who was playing hurt. I suspect Monahan and Tkachuk were.

From there, I don't actively shop Monahan, Gaudreau, or Giordano, but I listen to every call from other GMs who might inquire. If there's a good player for player trade (in the case of Monahan or Gaudreau) or a good value trade for Gio, I'd explore it and accept for one of Monahan or Gaudreau (whoever gets a better return) and for Gio.

Assuming neither Monahan nor Gaudreau move, I think trying Bennett-Backlund-Gaudreau is worth a try, at least in preseason, if a #1 C isn't obtainable, with Lindholm, Monahan and Tkachuk on a second scoring line. Bennett has skill, can make space and enforce when guys target Johnny, Backlund can be a second puck moving, two-way option. The downside is none of them are key finishers, but there's something very wrong with the 13/23 chemistry and if they had a falling out, I'd explore other options.

[AltaGuy]

I don’t think any of us believe there’s more than about a 1% chance Brodie is still here next season.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I view it as three seasons of deadline failure. This year the team didn't add the right pieces at the deadline. Maybe they were shopping and were out bid? Maybe guys didn't want to come to Calgary? Maybe they didn't want to spend what was required? In any case I view those as Management failures. Last year, if I recall correctly, the Flames were a wild card bubble team going into the deadline. They could have been in on the deadline action and made a strong push for the playoffs but they sat back and watched and had a terrible stretch drive causing them to miss the playoffs. 2017 was the same sit back and watch attitude at the deadline with a team that was borderline playoff contention.

Treliving, or whomever, is just too timid to make bold moves at the right times.

Yup, we needed to do something...we were not good enough to be so complacent at the deadline. Also, I don't like the line of thinking that we will wait and see and then go from there. That is next year golf talk.

[CGY12]

BT made the correct move by standing pat at the deadline, as it turns out. No deadline acquisition would have solved the Gaudreau/Monahan playoff performance issue, in my opinion. So trading future assets would have made no sense. I feel like BT wasn't willing to gamble like that, not fully knowing whether his key guys could raise their level of play.

Despite the season success and all the goals, its just different in the playoffs/down the stretch, when you go up against good teams. They need another play driver, they need more speed, they need more 1 shot scorers. Its going to be a challenge to address these needs but at least now he can properly evaluate and decide how to move forward (with all his assets at his disposal).

[Classic_Sniper]

The more I think about the way this series went, the more I think everything was meant to be. Like the ending of last season where it got so bad that it forced Treliving to completely redesign his bottom 6.

I think this series does the same thing to Treliving. The gut wrenching OT losses, the blowouts, the contrast between styles, the Avs’ top players destroying the Flames’ top players, Neal being scratched for the final game, winning the West yet being ousted in 5 in humiliating fashion to an 8th seed.

I think all of these things will be a lesson for Brad Treliving and his group because even after the most successful regular season of his tenure, he’s going to still be facing very harsh criticism and possibly even more questions then last season. Had the Flames lost in 7 in a closer tight series, I’m not sure dramatic change happens.

I know this will sounds bad, but in a way, this might be a good kick in the pants for Tree. Now he knows he can’t keep making the same mistakes (Neal, Brouwer, etc). Maybe this kind of loss to this kind of team forces him to think outside the box, take him outside of his comfort level a bit and hopefully this is the final step where the team can finally evolve into one of the true elite Stanley Cup contending teams.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Why is philly trading Coutourier for a passive Monahan and some extra junk?

If you think we are hard on Monahan, can you imagine Philly fans watching such a soft player?

He's basically the antithesis of Philly hockey, they won't want any part of him.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Otto-matic

Here's the thing.

Did Colorado blow up their team when they got bounced a couple years ago?

After they won their division in 2014 and were upset in the first round of the playoffs? Absolutely they did. They let Paul Stastny walk, traded Ryan O'Reilly and Matt Duchene, and hurt themselves over the long run by trying to fill gaps in their lineup with dead weight like Blake Comeau and the retirement tours of Jarome Iginla and Alex Tanguay. It wasn't until after they went through another few years of crap, drafted Rantanen, and jettisoned the dead weight on their roster into the sun that they improved.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by CGY12

BT made the correct move by standing pat at the deadline, as it turns out. No deadline acquisition would have solved the Gaudreau/Monahan playoff performance issue, in my opinion. So trading future assets would have made no sense. I feel like BT wasn't willing to gamble like that, not fully knowing whether his key guys could raise their level of play.

100% agree.
The deadline moves would have moved the wrong guys like Anderson & Valimaki.
It's parts of the core that need moving, not the young guys who are ready to step up and replace them.

It's unfortunate how it turned out, but this post season was always gonna be a "see what this group is really made of" type approach.

[David Struch]

Move on from Frolík, Jankowski, Neal, Stone, Brodie, and Giordano...

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Dubé - _____ - Tkachuk
Bennett - Backlund - Czarnik
Mangiapane - Ryan - Hathaway

Välimäki - Andersson
Hanifin - Hamonic
_____- Kylington

_____
Rittich

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

The more I think about the way this series went, the more I think everything was meant to be. Like the ending of last season where it got so bad that it forced Treliving to completely redesign his bottom 6.

I think this series does the same thing to Treliving. The gut wrenching OT losses, the blowouts, the contrast between styles, the Avs’ top players destroying the Flames’ top players, Neal being scratched for the final game, winning the West yet being ousted in 5 in humiliating fashion to an 8th seed.

I think all of these things will be a lesson for Brad Treliving and his group because even after the most successful regular season of his tenure, he’s going to still be facing very harsh criticism and possibly even more questions then last season. Had the Flames lost in 7 in a closer tight series, I’m not sure dramatic change happens.

I know this will sounds bad, but in a way, this might be a good kick in the pants for Tree. Now he knows he can’t keep making the same mistakes (Neal, Brouwer, etc). Maybe this kind of loss to this kind of team forces him to think outside the box, take him outside of his comfort level a bit and hopefully this is the final step where the team can finally evolve into one of the true elite Stanley Cup contending teams.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't believe that the nature of individuals can be changed very easily. Over the years we have seen the methodology employed by Treliving. He has made some smart moves and has signed some good deals but he is a slow mover, possibly stubborn with regards to his decisions and potentially inflexible. I think we have seen the peak of the Flames under the management of Treliving. At this point further success will only come from a new management direction.