Fire Brad Treliving

[Corral]

Originally Posted by Bingo

This has been one of the most mystifying periods in this site's history to me, I just can't get my head around the counter argument to this trade.

Some people simply refuse to admit they were wrong about Hamilton, or at least wrong about how much Hamilton was valued by the Flames organization. And thus they refuse to be seen as supportive of this trade. Hockey logic has no place in this thread.

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

You guys are seriously under rating Fox. At WORST he's worth a second round pick, even with his current signing issues. He's not a throw in. I mean christ, Tim fkn Erixon got a roster player and 2 seconds by Jay fkn Feaster.

But yeah, let's pretend adding one of the NCAA's top rated dmen isn't a big deal.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

So Fox wasn't part of this trade? Was Fox not a top Flames prospect? Does his upside not count to Carolina?

There is no doubt that Fox is a top prospect and will be an NHL star. I also think that there should be no doubt that Tre has tried to do whatever he can to gauge Fox and his likelihood to sign here. The moment Tre makes Fox available for a trade, all the other GM's know he's a flight risk.

When that happens, the reality is that Fox has very little value from an asset management perspective. People claiming that someone will pay a 2nd for Fox is banana's when he's a flight risk.

Frankly, all Carolina got was exclusive negotiating rights for the next year with Fox.

That really doesn't mean a whole lot. If it meant getting the Lindholm and Hanafin deal done, it's a great hockey trade. If Fox is in fact loyal to whomever holds his rights, then it's a loss, but you have to believe Tre did his due diligence on this to determine that this isn't the case.

EDIT: Ok ok, I retract calling Fox an NHL star. He has solid NHL potential and is a top prospect.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

There is no doubt that Fox is a top prospect and will be an NHL star...

Whoah, hold on.

I think there is significant doubt that Fox will become an NHL star. He has tremendous offensive instincts, but his skating and size evoke concern that he will not amount to much more than a decent top-four defenseman, and a powerplay specialist. That is still a valuable player, but certainly not an "NHL star."

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Whoah, hold on.

I think there is significant doubt that Fox will become an NHL star. He has tremendous offensive instincts, but his skating and size evoke concern that he will not amount to much more than a decent top-four defenseman, and a powerplay specialist. That is still a valuable player, but certainly not an "NHL star."

I see Fox as an unreal talent but I've really liked him for years and could be biased. Regardless of the fact of what his potential is, the point of my post is about his current value from an asset management perspective.

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

This thread.

I peeked over at Oilfans to see if the pendulum swung hard the other way, that maybe they're laughing at our faces.

Turns out they're having an even-handed civil discussion about the pros and cons of the trade.

What have we become?

[JohnnyB]

If the Flames turn into an exciting team to cheer for that actually achieves great results on the ice and in the standings this year, I will very happily withdraw my criticisms of Treliving and this trade. For now though, as much as people may debate the balance in the return on this trade, moving out Hamilton and Ferland for two younger pieces still in development suggests this team is taking a step back in the development timeline in the hopes of two steps forward a couple of seasons from now. That might be a rational and good choice at this point, but Treliving is the guy that brought us to this point. What I see is a team that sucked to cheer for and sucked in on-ice results after three years of Treliving building the team. The team improved on paper with Treliving, but regressed in both entertainment value and results in the standings.

Also, there's no doubt that Hamilton was a big acquisition for the team that was targeted to be a key player going forward. Good for Treliving to bring that in, no doubt. Nonetheless, here we are down the road and the team has come to a point of moving that player on despite recognition of his excellent skills. Does that say the team is being well managed? And for all the talk of signing his brother as an indicator of big issues in the dressing room, everyone seems to be putting that on Hamilton while failing to acknowledge that Treliving is the one who gave him the contract. Does Treliving not bare ultimate responsibility for that situation as the GM?

Again, I sincerely hope to be proven wrong by the Flames turning into an exciting and successful team this year. Up to now though, I'm just annoyed that Treliving's team building skills have resulted in boring and unsuccessful hockey and that this trade looks like moving backwards on the timeline.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Whoah, hold on.

I think there is significant doubt that Fox will become an NHL star. He has tremendous offensive instincts, but his skating and size evoke concern that he will not amount to much more than a decent top-four defenseman, and a powerplay specialist. That is still a valuable player, but certainly not an "NHL star."

I've always thought Fox has great upside but his bust potential is significant. I think Valimaki and Dube are much bigger locks to play significant NHL minutes.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

There is no doubt that Fox is a top prospect and will be an NHL star.

There are few prospects that you can truly say this about; basically generational talents.

Fox is a decent prospect and has some chance of being an NHL regular.

Which is about as good as it gets.

[bubbsy]

I am fine with questioning treliving's quality as far as gm and team architect go.

Drafting - meh. In the 5 drafts since his hiring, only 2 players have over a dozen games in the NHL. I actually don't credit him for these 2 as they were both high top 6 first round picks (Bennett, tkatchuk). I know it's early on a bunch of the picks he has made but there's just as high a chance out top picks bust vs make it.

Free agents - meh. Frolik - ok, Brouwer - brutal.

Trades - meh. Hamilton brought in on the cheap due to perceived issues, then traded out for the same, despite actually showing year over year improvement. (i actually was not a Hamilton fan. If you are going to be deemed a top pairing guy you gotta be effective defending, which i did not think he was). Hamonic, brutal trade. Team was barely a playoff team yet here we go throwing around high picks before the season even starts... Stupid.

Goalies - 3 years in, i see a barely viable solution in the interim, and no real path to a long term plan. Oh, tried plan a (elliott) failed try again.

Coaches - Gulutzan was a fool. Didn't have the balls to switch up pairings, or the top 6 forwards. When the going got tough, well lets swap around Hathaway, brouwer, lazar, stajan. Or lets swap kulak/Bartkowski. Oh, tried plan a (Gulutzan) failed try again (see a pattern?)

Even the way he tries to build the team is somewhat is flawed. The entire nhl is going the route of high octane offense and speed, yet all our big prize trade and draft picks are d. Yet, we had one of the more overrated d in the nhl.

Lindholm is the BIGGEST skilled forward acquisition made in treliving's tenure, despite scoring being a trouble area.

4 years in, the team still isn't skilled enough, doesn't defend well enough doesn't have a plan for goaltending, and brought in a highly questionable coaching hire.

Unless some of treliving's bets pay off, this could easily be his last year here.

[cannon7]

Originally Posted by Corral

Some people simply refuse to admit they were wrong about Hamilton, or at least wrong about how much Hamilton was valued by the Flames organization. And thus they refuse to be seen as supportive of this trade. Hockey logic has no place in this thread.

Considering your view on Hamilton is entirely based on conjecture and hearsay -- perhaps approaching the situation with less conviction might be a good strategy here? Some of you posters are starting to sound like Greasers with how eagerly you run a player out of town.

[Vinny01]

In my opinion Treliving has really put himself on the line this offseason and in my opinion this team has to make the playoffs to keep his job. I am happy that he actually made the team younger in the blockbuster at the draft. While Peters wasn’t on my top 5 lists of coaches I am glad he moved on from Gulutzan.

After last season I didn’t feel this team was on the verge of being a cup contender so I am very happy Treliving cashed in on his best trade chip and added to the young core. For this team to be truly successful and contend we better hope that Lindholm and Hanifin live up to their draft billing.

[Stay Golden]

You would think this season that this time with has occurred it is playoffs or bust.
The more I think about it Treliving will take a big swing at a significant FA.

[JohnnyB]

Even playoffs or bust seems like low expectations. For Treliving to turn things around there are a couple of things I would like to see:

1. The Flames actually become a fun team to cheer for again
2. The Flames win a round

If the Flames manage to just squeak into the playoffs and are booted in one round, I don't really see that as a great accomplishment over 4 years as a GM. Will probably be enough to keep his job, but not a sign of accomplishment.

[Manhattanboy]

The above posts by Johnny and Bubbsy really nail things.

At this point in Tre’s tenure it certainly cannot be said he has exceeded expectations. We took on a guy who was schooled for 10 years in the Coyotes’ organization and it shows.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

The above posts by Johnny and Bubbsy really nail things.

At this point in Tre’s tenure it certainly cannot be said he has exceeded expectations. We took on a guy who was schooled for 10 years in the Coyotes’ organization and it shows.

He's made mistakes but he's also shown that he's not going to sit idle and in hopes his bad moves turn around as he did fire his coach and he makes big moves almost annually which may be part of the problem. Honestly if your GM is making big moves every year does that not show a lack of direction or plan? Every year he changes the team but you can argue it doesn't get better and the team still hasn't progressed much from the Hartley led team he inherited that got to the 2nd round of the playoffs in 2015. I don't think he's above reproach and sooner or later one of his teams has to ascend to more than just bubble team or he's going to lose his job. Time will tell but after this offseason ownership will likely be expecting improvement and if that doesn't happen the whispers will probably start to come out about his job security. Peters really has to be a good coach for this organization as he's not going to survive another Glen Gulutzan type hire. This thread is premature as you don't fire Treliving for making this trade but down the road you probably fire him if this trad doesn't work compounded with the Hamonic trade, and bad coaching hire(s).

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Even playoffs or bust seems like low expectations. For Treliving to turn things around there are a couple of things I would like to see:

1. The Flames actually become a fun team to cheer for again
2. The Flames win a round

If the Flames manage to just squeak into the playoffs and are booted in one round, I don't really see that as a great accomplishment over 4 years as a GM. Will probably be enough to keep his job, but not a sign of accomplishment.

So you expected to go from a 77 point team to cup contender in 4 years?

[Vinny01]

A lot of people are pointing at the Winnipeg Jets and seeing how patient they have been and after 7 years with zero playoff wins and top 10 picks they have appeared to be breaking out. That is all well and good but I am no where near that patient.

I feel lucky that we have a GM that is not afraid to shake things up. I have been a fan of all of his blockbuster deals. I admittedly was not a fan of the Elliott trade or the Bollig deal but his 3 monster draft deals are all solid in my books. I am glad he did not stick with Gulutzan even though Peters was not my top choice I am happy that GG is gone.

I am also okay taking a half step back in the Hamilton trade because I don’t think this team was as far ahead as many (including myself) thought a year ago. I am happy we have a GM that pivotts when he makes a mistake, has the balls to make a big trade, and is aggressive in changing the team when things go poorly.

I am looking forward to giving my final thoughts on Treliving this summer once the rest of the heavy lifting is done. This team still needs a top 6 forward and I am curious to see how he acquires one.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

The above posts by Johnny and Bubbsy really nail things.

At this point in Tre’s tenure it certainly cannot be said he has exceeded expectations. We took on a guy who was schooled for 10 years in the Coyotes’ organization and it shows.

That depends what your expectations were. Maybe yours are not very realistic? But, per your post. Has Treliving met them? Not exceeded them apparently, but has he met them?

[Corral]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Considering your view on Hamilton is entirely based on conjecture and hearsay -- perhaps approaching the situation with less conviction might be a good strategy here? Some of you posters are starting to sound like Greasers with how eagerly you run a player out of town.

These comments are the best on CP. Just about everything written on this forum is conjecture and/or hearsay. Its an internet forum after all.

And i'm not sure why you are giving me a hard time for wanting Hamilton gone - just look at the title for this thread.

LOL

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

He's made mistakes but he's also shown that he's not going to sit idle and in hopes his bad moves turn around as he did fire his coach and he makes big moves almost annually which may be part of the problem. Honestly if your GM is making big moves every year does that not show a lack of direction or plan? Every year he changes the team but you can argue it doesn't get better and the team still hasn't progressed much from the Hartley led team he inherited that got to the 2nd round of the playoffs in 2015. I don't think he's above reproach and sooner or later one of his teams has to ascend to more than just bubble team or he's going to lose his job. Time will tell but after this offseason ownership will likely be expecting improvement and if that doesn't happen the whispers will probably start to come out about his job security. Peters really has to be a good coach for this organization as he's not going to survive another Glen Gulutzan type hire. This thread is premature as you don't fire Treliving for making this trade but down the road you probably fire him if this trad doesn't work compounded with the Hamonic trade, and bad coaching hire(s).

A lot of people including myself made fun of Cheveldayoff for his inaction during the first few years in Winnipeg and right now I'm dreaming of that kind of patience.

Big moves every year is certainly entertaining, but I really wish the Flames would show the patience and invest internally (prospect development) that seems to be the best way to obtain long-term success in this league.