[PGT] They lost to the Coyotes

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

GG's post game interview really bugs me. He talks about two specific plays that led to low danger turnovers that somehow found their way down the ice and into the back of their net.

Why are these plays such a focus? These plays happen dozens of times a period, yet it seems every time it happens to the Flames, it goes into the back of their net.

Most of the goals in this league are the result of defensive breakdowns of the opposition team. It's no wonder the Flames grip their sticks so tight.

This is my biggest issue with GG and his staff as the year progressed.

Focus on little things that weren’t the root cause of issues and then it generated bigger problems as players tried to fix a problem that wasn’t really a problem.

Mike Fail has been doing some analysis on twitter too and was saying that down the stretch last year the team was using a different break out , PK, PP, and neutral zone defensive structure, and it led to us turning it around an making the playoffs.

Now all of these things were changed coming into this season, weren’t nearly as effective, and we never tried to go back to what this same coaching staff did last year.

Just weird coaching tactics that I never picked up on before.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by zamler

I don't see how the players have quite on the coach. They've done their best to play the system but it doesn't work, it wears them down and eventually they break.

I will buy that. But if there are guys on this team that have checked out, I’d be looking to find them a new home next year.

This is precisely the team that was swept by the Ducks. Can play well for long stretches but not when game is on the line.

I don’t think that’s all on the coach, but the right coach can hopefully help turn that around.

[Barca]

Originally Posted by Dion

I would think someone like Quenneville would see an opportunity like this as a challenge. He did is thing in Chicago and would probably relish an opportunity to build another winner.

Chicago was stacked win young talent and an original six team tho.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think a lot of people are taking this tone at this point because they're sick of seeing the shot/corsi argument. Teams are different, shots are different and the situations leading up to those shots are different.

Those stats are meaningless in the case of this team. Who cares that successful teams also had high shots? Serving up 20 extra low danger muffins a game doesn't do a whole lot for success, clearly.

And the problem im taking with that argument is that there is no proof this team takes 20 extra low danger muffin shots a game.

Sometimes the puck just doesn’t go in for teams - it’s why teams have such different shooting percentages Year to year.

Last year Tampa missed the playoffs, this year same coach and same team shoot 1.5% better and they look elite again.

The problem I think most on the shot argument side have is that just because the puck doesn’t go in, doesn’t mean the shot was an extra low danger muffin. Sometimes the puck just doesn’t go in for you - and you see teams & players have seasons like that year after year and people go “oh that player/team really took a step back”.

Coaching, mental toughness, special teams, shots against, and goaltending on home ice are real problems this teams had this year. Taking too many shots was not a problem or a bad thing.

Shot execution was clearly also a problem though because if they had even an average shooting percentage between this year and last then they would rank 11th in GF instead of 20th - it’s that fine of a line in this league. Plus those numbers don’t even include the fact we lead the league in missing the net.

[Corral]

Downy Soft and Delicate. Your 2017-2018 Calgary FLAMES.

Stats can go @#$# themselves.

Good night.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

And the problem im taking with that argument is that there is no proof this team takes 20 extra low danger muffin shots a game.

Sometimes the puck just doesn’t go in for teams - it’s why teams have such different shooting percentages Year to year.

Last year Tampa missed the playoffs, this year same coach and same team shoot 1.5% better and they look elite again.

The problem I think most on the shot argument side have is that just because the puck doesn’t go in, doesn’t mean the shot was an extra low danger muffin. Sometimes the puck just doesn’t go in for you - and you see teams & players have seasons like that year after year and people go “oh that player/team really took a step back”.

Coaching, mental toughness, special teams, shots against, and goaltending on home ice are real problems this teams had this year. Taking too many shots was not a problem or a bad thing.

Shot execution was clearly also a problem though because if they had even an average shooting percentage between this year and last then they would rank 11th in GF instead of 20th - it’s that fine of a line in this league. Plus those numbers don’t even include the fact we lead the league in missing the net.

And that's the whole thing. Flames missed the net 1000 times when that stat was trotted out. Statline the fan trots out today, they shoot a ton but are 24th in goals per game. 24. And lead the league in missed shot. They way they're going about shot generation is bad. It's the system. You can't honestly say that the Flames version of high volume shot generation is going to lead to success. It hasnt, and it won't. Go through every GDT and you'll find a series of posts saying we make every damned goalie look great. I don't need fancy advanced metric shot stats to tell me what I'm seeing every game I watch. It's plain as day the quality of shots they're taking is bad.

Yes the cliche of just get pucks to the nets and good thing will happen is true, but I'll be damned if anyone tells me the Flames are doing it the right way.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Corral

Downy Soft and Delicate. Your 2017-2018 Calgary FLAMES.

Stats can go @#$# themselves.

Good night.

Lol

Love it!

[CaptainCrunch]

Ok vent time.

I have never been one of those people that talks about respecting people. To be honest it takes a lot to earn my respect.

Showing desire and determination and perseverance in the face of bad odds, that earns respect from me win or lose.

A person or group of people that does something above and beyond ordinary or in the face of possible failure, that's respectable.

I've had more and more trouble attaching respect to pro sports.

But it came to me tonight after this game. I've lost all respect for this group of players. Not because of something that they've done in the community, or said in the papers or on twitter. But because of what they've done on the ice this year.

I've said that there's something lacking in the leadership department on this team. Sure I believe that GG hasn't done a good job this year, he's been slow to adjust, stubborn in rolling lines when he shouldn't have. Been obstinate in terms of player assignments. Believe me, I would be fine with him paying what would be the ultimate pro sports price for his failures this year.

But I have very little respect for athletes who make millions of dollars who clearly didn't relish the challenge of making the playoffs. This team to me quit, we saw it last night and we saw it tonight.

I don't think I've ever followed a team that I consider to be more unlikable then the 2017-2018 Calgary Flames. Now I'm sure that if they read a post like this, they'd go screw you, I'm one of the top of the top of the hockey world and you're nothing.

And they're right, at this point, CaptainCrunch is nothing, as something that went from spending a bunch of money a year on this team, to someone that's gone to spending very little, I'm nothing.

And that's this teams fault

When you have to have a win against one of the worst teams in hockey and you get flattened and wave the right flag, you don't gain my respect or admiration.

I'm sure there are players on this team that can wake up tomorrow and look in the mirror and say, "I tried". But there are lots of players on this team that if they say that, to me they're lying.

I've often said that the Oilers were mentally lazy and I didn't have much respect for them because year after year they quit on their coach and gleefully waited for a new coach.

With the Flames they are a lethal combination of quit and bad leadership and poor coaching. But poor coaching is no excuse for no effort.

If you want to quit, then quit. Put down your hockey stick and take off your helmet and go stock shelves or pump gas. If you want to quick then bench yourself, or don't dress.

But don't waste our time.

There's something entirely rotten in that dressing room, in that collective of young millionaires. A dressing room that lacks pride, and self respect and work ethic.

Look, I get the negativity on this board, we're all frustrated hockey fans, a lot of us have followed this Flames team for nearly 40 years, but I didn't participate of read it because it became tiring and it fed my own feelings of negativity.

so consider this my venting my spleen.

I don't hate the players on this team, far from it. I respect that they go out in the community, that they donate their time and money to laudable efforts. But that's only half of the equation. When your earning millions of bucks a year, then the fans have a right to expect that you're going to try to fight through adversity and die trying.

Instead you raised the white flag over the last three games.

You've basically embarrassed yourself, the uniform that you pull on, and the city that you play for.

Every year it gets harder and harder to come back for another 80 games of hockey. Next year it might finally hit the tipping point with me where I don't come back, where I emulate the players and go through the motions or stop trying all together.

Where when a buddy says "Hey Crunch what do you think of the Flames", or "What did you think of the game last night", and my answer will be a shrug and a "Calgary still has a pro team? New to me".

I mean thank god this board has interesting discussions outside of hockey, or what would be the point right?

Basically whether he admits it or not, Treliving has to understand that this team isn't close, its not a right winger or a bottom 6 player away from jumping over that barrier to contender. They're a major heart and testicular fortitude transplant away.

Shame on the Flames, they've finally done it, they've reciprocated a lack of caring with a lack of caring.

[crapshoot]

Screw you Gulutzan, get away from this team! Let's just bring Matty to 1000 games and then shut down this comically terrible excuse for a season.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by dammage79

And that's the whole thing. Flames missed the net 1000 times when that stat was trotted out. Statline the fan trots out today, they shoot a ton but are 24th in goals per game. 24. And lead the league in missed shot. They way they're going about shot generation is bad. It's the system. You can't honestly say that the Flames version of high volume shot generation is going to lead to success. It hasnt, and it won't. Go through every GDT and you'll find a series of posts saying we make every damned goalie look great. I don't need fancy advanced metric shot stats to tell me what I'm seeing every game I watch. It's plain as day the quality of shots they're taking is bad.

Yes the cliche of just get pucks to the nets and good thing will happen is true, but I'll be damned if anyone tells me the Flames are doing it the right way.

And see that’s where I think we see the game differently because I don’t blame that on them getting too high a volume of shots. I blame Most of it on a lack of shooting talent on this team, some of it on a coaching staff that has these guys gripping the sticks too tight, and some on bad luck.

I can’t count how many times this year Lazar, Hathaway, Bennett, etc (those three stand out the most to me) have had a shot right in the slot only to miss the net by 2 feet.

Backlund and Frolik have had many glorious opportunities this year only to shoot it right into the goalies chest.

One fault I do have with this team system is the lack of East-West puck movement in the offensive zone, which I think is partially due to coaches fear of giveaways from cross seam passes but I don’t think that means all the shots they do take are low danger. They still seem to get the puck in the right area of the ice for a good chance they just don’t finish.

[theinfinitejar]

Originally Posted by Sgrath

Goodhart's law strikes again - "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

Oh well some more games to get through as a fan and then maybe get out and enjoy summer

This team is not setting out to have good CORSI numbers, a team trying to pump up their CORSI would not play Stewart over Shore, they wouldn't let Bart within 1000 yards of an NHL rink, they wouldn't trade a first and two seconds for Travis Hamonic and they would never in a million years sign Troy Brouwer to his contract.

I know it's in vogue to #### all over the nerds right now, but they're not the people running this team into the ground.

[theinfinitejar]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

One fault I do have with this team system is the lack of East-West puck movement in the offensive zone, which I think is partially due to coaches fear of giveaways from cross seam passes but I don’t think that means all the shots they do take are low danger. They still seem to get the puck in the right area of the ice for a good chance they just don’t finish.

They just don't seem to cross the royal road anywhere near enough and especially on the PP.

[combustiblefuel]

Just finished the game.


####ing losers.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The thing is though most of what you said isn’t true though.

According to NHL stats the Flames are 4th in the league in tipped shots. My guess would be that means we generate traffic.

Honestly everyone just makes stuff up on the shot quality. One day it’s Not enough shots close to the net, the next day it’s not enough shots off the rush, and I guess today it’s not enough shots when we are set up with traffic.

I have no idea how the Flames get so many shots because according to all the people “watching” the game we don’t shoot off the rush, when we are set up, or with any traffic. Just open lane, unscreened wrist shots from the point I guess.

Also your statement that high volume shot generation is a bad thing is 100% inaccurate.

He are the league leaders in Shots on Goal over he last 10 years:

2017: Pittsburgh (Won Cup)
2016: Pittsburgh (Won Cup)
2015: Chicago (Won Cup)
2014: San Jose (Kings Won Cup Ranked 7th)
2013: Ottawa (Chicago Won Cup Ranked 5th)
2012: Pittsburgh (LA Won Cup 11th)
2011: San Jose (Boston Won Cup Ranked 3rd)
2010: Chicago (Won Cup)
2009: Detroit (Lost Finals)
2008: Detroit (Won Cup)

Somebody should tell all those teams that high volume shot generation is a bad thing and they did it wrong.

The only thing remotely correct in your post was about the team shooting into the goalies chest. That doesn’t mean generating high shot volume is bad though, it means you have #### shooting talent (true) and a piss poor shooting percentage.

There are a lot of issues with this team this season but trying to frame the fact that the team generating a lot of shots as a bad thing is one of the stupidest things I’ve seen this fan base spin to try and explain our poor results.

Ok this is coming from another advanced stats supporter. You have to stop. The point Dammage was making was that just because you get a bunch of shots doesn't mean you will win games rather the teams you referenced above have ELITE players that can finish and probably better coaching then Calgary has had for years. FFS just let people vent.

[Shin Pad]

So the only thing worse is if the Islanders win the draft lottery with the Flames 1st round pick for Hamonic.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by crapshoot

Screw you Gulutzan, get away from this team! Let's just bring Matty to 1000 games and then shut down this comically terrible excuse for a season.

Let Matty play the remainder of the season . It is over. No more kicks at the can for him.

Let him go out with his dignity at least.

[crapshoot]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Let Matty play the remainder of the season . It is over. No more kicks at the can for him.

Let him go out with his dignity at least.

Might as well give him a few spins with Gaudreau on his wing. Just about the only feel-good story we have left at this point.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Shin Pad

So the only thing worse is if the Islanders win the draft lottery with the Flames 1st round pick for Hamonic.

Silver lining if the Isles win the lotto, thats one less key player the Oilers have a shot at.

[Dajazz]

You should use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamp post, for support rather than illumination.

Put the eye test and use the stats to support it.

Slow and rigid puck movement = opponents set up = opposing goalie is prepared

Sure, we lack shooting talent, perhaps there is even a thing called "bad luck" but hey, we're 160 games in to the same ******* GG system, the results tell the truth.

It sure looks like we aim for the goalie's chest all the time, but that's because the goalie is already set up and is able to to a high percentage save with his body in front of the puck. No slides or flashy gloves needed.

So yes, I do believe there is a thing like "bad high quality shots" because I can watch the Flames play. There is little tic-tac-toe or puck rushing, something this team could thrive on.

[Flamenfame]

Originally Posted by Duffalufagus

Bennett has sucked (especially for a 4th overall pick) for three years. We’ve seen him play with everyone. Again, I feel like our fanbase overvalues the talent on this team. Hope I’m wrong and he lights it up next year. But I don’t know how one could look at his actual production and game and ground an objective argument that it is likely to happen.

He wont he has no finish , as usual all the eastern outlets like TSN way over hyped him as the next Gilmour type when there were other players like Ehlers destroying their league , That Draft is looking so strong and we drafted a bunch of slugs out of it. This team cannot draft either embarrasing over the years , 2011 was good but we traded 2 of those players away for other uselss picks they squandered . And now we have no picks this draft and were supposed to improve ? seriously I was calling for this team to start blowing it up in the 15/16 season that it was treading water and here we are 3 seasons later and the same BS again