[PGT] Flames lose 4-2 as special teams fail them yet again

[Domoic]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I disagree that the team is not built properly. Did anyone honestly go into this season saying "Gee whiz guys, this team is just completely built the wrong way. What a bad GM". No.

Everyone, including myself thought that this team was built properly, with manageable shortfalls at RW. You had a really good 1C, 2C, 3C and even 4C. That is how you build your forward group; around Cs. Plus an emerging star LW.

Everyone thought our top 3 D-men were awesome, and that the bottom pair with Engelland was more than adequate.

The GM then traded for two goalies, and one of them could be considered a bonafide #1.


Tell me again how the team was built wrong? Wrong coaches? Perhaps. Wrong players? Perhaps, but while the team was being built, everyone agreed it was built right. This is a good team playing way below expectations.

Good post.

But I am starting to think that we have been overrating many of our players, especially on D. I know I am guilty of it.

I mean, it has been a LONG time since GIO seemed Norris caliber - years, in fact!

Same with Brodie.

Hamilton has never lived up to expectations as a Flame.

Bennett has always been about his "age" and his "potential". So maybe a pass.

Bouma has never done anything.

Ferland? Outside of 1 playoff round, nothing.

Outside of Gaudreau, Mony, and MAYBE Backs & Frolik (and Elliott?) - who is a good hockey player on this team that "you gotta have"?

Whole lotta nothing.

/vent

[Bingo]

^ Brodie and Giordano were considered for the World Cup team this fall.

Monahan scored 20 in each of his three seasons starting at 18.

That's certainly a vent ...

[socalwingfan]

Can we pump the brakes on the Bennett disappointment. He's 20 years old in his second sesason under his 2nd different head coach learning to play against the top centers in the game.

[Flash Walken]

The most concerning aspect for me is the surprising decline in play from Bennett.

Has looked incredible in a shift here or there, but I didn't expect him to take such a step back.

You had to figure Giordano would slow down at some point which would drag down his defensive partner, and with a back problem I assumed Monahan's season would get off to a slow start, but the team really needs their supposed ace in the hole on the second line in Bennett to start coming through and taking on some on-ice leadership if they are going to find success.

[kyuss275]

I got a bad feeling with the PP still not scoring, that Wideman is going to draw back in for next game. IMO he does not bring enough on the PP to out weigh his poor defensive game.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm glad the Flames have a management group that will act much more calm than the fan base from what I'm reading.

Spinning organizations panic and make stupid moves, solid organizations stick to it and see it through.

Is it the right move to stick with Cameron, our special teams coach, when the system he's sticking with is so obviously setting us up to fail? Special teams are not complex. I don't believe for a second that there's a 16-20 game learning period when a new special teams coach is hired, like Haynes is reporting in regards to head coaches.

Looking at the numbers today:

PP - 30th - 8.0%
PK - 29th - 72.1%
Combined % - 30th - 80.1%, AINEC. 29th placed team is 86.4%. Obviously, league average is 100%.

If we were even just average (18%-PP & 82%-PK) in special teams, not good, but average, we would have 6 fewer GA and 5 more GF through our 15GP. That's a drop of .40 GA/G and an increase of .33 GF/G. Imagine a .73 swing in our goal differential, per game.

Average special teams would have our GF/G increase from 2.53 to 2.87, and our GA/G decrease from 3.67 to 3.27. Our goal differential on the season would decrease from -17 to -6. Important to consider we're also the worst team in the league with the goalie pulled, both in GF and GA. Being average in this special team would close the goal differential gap even further.

How many wins has Dave Cameron cost this team?
How much longer does Glen Gulutzan take the heat for Dave Cameron's failure?

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

Watching Gulutzan after Johnny's tying goal...not a hint of a smile. No emotion. Nothing

Maybe he did something or the ol' back pat when the cams weren't on him

Yup, just like good old sour face Brent Sutter.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm glad the Flames have a management group that will act much more calm than the fan base from what I'm reading.

I wasn't so sure of that when Feaster was around, and we certainly saw what happens when a GM freaks out when Phaneuf and Jokinen were traded by Sutter in that odd week.

These guys are professional enough to a) not question the team the assembled and b) not question the coach they just hired

Spinning organizations panic and make stupid moves, solid organizations stick to it and see it through.

ok, let's follow this through.

How far along this season would you consider seeing it through before you make a change?

And are you prepared to sacrifice this season in order to see it through? (may be a redundant question now)

[Toonage]

Cameron's only NHL success came off the back of a flash in the pan goaltender. While I was willing to see if different personnel and a different support system would help him, the time has come to accept that Cameron is what he is. Calgary should look to a new assistant that they would also be comfortable with promoting to the top job for the rest of the year if/when the time comes.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The most concerning aspect for me is the surprising decline in play from Bennett.

Has looked incredible in a shift here or there, but I didn't expect him to take such a step back.

You had to figure Giordano would slow down at some point which would drag down his defensive partner, and with a back problem I assumed Monahan's season would get off to a slow start, but the team really needs their supposed ace in the hole on the second line in Bennett to start coming through and taking on some on-ice leadership if they are going to find success.

I am not at all concerned about Bennett, he is a gamer.

However, I will say that (as a short-term observation only) I think the benchings have neutered him a little. I think they will be a learning lesson long-term, but they have definitely affected his confidence for now.

Having said that, let's keep in mind that he has been up against Kopitar, Getzlaf and Benn in the last 3 games. That can make anyone look average.

I think talk of moving him to the wing is silly. The Flames are still rebuilding and still developing - and that certainly includes Bennett. Anyone that expects that he is going to outplay Kopitar and Getzlaf and Benn this year needs to re-evaluate their expectations.

Having said that, him competing against those guys every night is definitely helping him learn how to be a better player. As fans, we need to be patient.

[polak]

I don't understand how Gelinas is escaping criticism. He was terrible as the special teams coach last year and here we are with the team struggling in every aspect again. Not sure what he's responsible for this year but I can assure you he's not doing great at it.

I love him for '04, the Eliminatior will always be a Flames legend but his coaching career has not been great so far.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

Is it the right move to stick with Cameron, our special teams coach, when the system he's sticking with is so obviously setting us up to fail? Special teams are not complex. I don't believe for a second that there's a 16-20 game learning period when a new special teams coach is hired, like Haynes is reporting in regards to head coaches.

Looking at the numbers today:

PP - 30th - 8.0%
PK - 29th - 72.1%
Combined % - 30th - 80.1%, AINEC. 29th placed team is 86.4%. Obviously, league average is 100%.

If we were even just average (18%-PP & 82%-PK) in special teams, not good, but average, we would have 6 fewer GA and 5 more GF through our 15GP. That's a drop of .40 GA/G and an increase of .33 GF/G. Imagine a .73 swing in our goal differential, per game.

Average special teams would have our GF/G increase from 2.53 to 2.87, and our GA/G decrease from 3.67 to 3.27. Our goal differential on the season would decrease from -17 to -6. Important to consider we're also the worst team in the league with the goalie pulled, both in GF and GA. Being average in this special team would close the goal differential gap even further.

How many wins has Dave Cameron cost this team?
How much longer does Glen Gulutzan take the heat for Dave Cameron's failure?

The Flames have given up 6 - six! - empty net goals already this year. No other team is even close to that.

If the PP were contributing at all, the Flames would likely not have been trailing by a goal in all 6 of those games, so the goal differential might even be more improved than the numbers you posted suggest straight up.

[Par]

One of the things that should have been done was when they hired GG, he should have been given the chance to pick his own coaches from the assiant to the goalie coach and all the way down.

Should have cleaned house on the coaches and let the new coach pick his coaches.

[Ashasx]

Rob Tychkowski ‏@Sun_Tychkowski
"I probably shouldn't say this but you come from Calgary and you go from small to big in a hurry." - Stars coach Lindy Ruff on Rogers Place

life is agony

[Looch City]

I bet Ken King forced him to say that.

#conspiracy

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by polak

I don't understand how Gelinas is escaping criticism. He was terrible as the special teams coach last year and here we are with the team struggling in every aspect again. Not sure what he's responsible for this year but I can assure you he's not doing great at it.

I love him for '04, the Eliminatior will always be a Flames legend but his coaching career has not been great so far.

You do realize that with almost the exact same personnel, the power play under Marty was sitting at about 17-18% which was good for about league average. Right now, I would take league average instead of the league's worst 8%. If anything, we need to re-hire Marty to coach the power play and send Dave Cameron anywhere else far far away from the PP.

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

You do realize that with almost the exact same personnel, the power play under Marty was sitting at about 17-18% which was good for about league average. Right now, I would take league average instead of the league's worst 8%. If anything, we need to re-hire Marty to coach the power play and send Dave Cameron anywhere else far far away from the PP.

Totally agree, bring Marty down and jettison Cameron to Pluto.

[Travis Munroe]

Originally Posted by Domoic

Good post.

But I am starting to think that we have been overrating many of our players, especially on D. I know I am guilty of it.

I mean, it has been a LONG time since GIO seemed Norris caliber - years, in fact!

Same with Brodie.

Hamilton has never lived up to expectations as a Flame.

Bennett has always been about his "age" and his "potential". So maybe a pass.

Bouma has never done anything.

Ferland? Outside of 1 playoff round, nothing.

Outside of Gaudreau, Mony, and MAYBE Backs & Frolik (and Elliott?) - who is a good hockey player on this team that "you gotta have"?

Whole lotta nothing.

/vent

Hamilton seemed to show some good signs under Hartley. I personally think our coach has his system and that is what he uses where an elite coach would alter their system to work around the type of talent he has.

Ferland is IMO one of the best 4th liners in the league. Why the 4th line has seen any changes is beyond me. One thing that really stood out to me lastnight was the increased physical play translated to the flames being dominant. As soon as the physical play died down we lost our edge. Johny said himself at the end of the 2nd that Ferland basically sparked everyone.

Bennett has also been great at times but I do not think he is being put in a position to succeed as much as he is being put into Gulutzans system. A mix of both would do wonders.

Brouwer looked great early on ... is it a coincidence that as the system has been more implemented, his ability has decreased?


I am all for giving Gulutzan more time but Cameron should have been gone a week ago. You need a big shake up before it is too late. Firing the head coach is reactive, not proactive. There is not better option to replace him but surely there are many options to replace Cameron.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Rob Tychkowski ‏@Sun_Tychkowski
"I probably shouldn't say this but you come from Calgary and you go from small to big in a hurry." - Stars coach Lindy Ruff on Rogers Place

life is agony

I was at Rogers Place for the Oilers opener against the Flames (in a suite in fact) and trust me the sight lines are far better in the Saddledome.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

I was at Rogers Place for the Oilers opener against the Flames (in a suite in fact) and trust me the sight lines are far better in the Saddledome.

nobody is denying that. The Saddledome is a dump.