At least 84 killed in terrorist attack in Nice, France

[nik-]

Blaming the West is BS self loathing and western guilt. We've treated a lot of countries like #### and exploited them. But the culture, religion and limitations in education are the problems here and we hardly imposed those.

These people aren't babies, they don't need our actions to be the basis for theirs

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by nik-

Blaming the West is BS self loathing and western guilt. We've treated a lot of countries like #### and exploited them. But the culture, religion and limitations in education are the problems here and we hardly imposed those.

These people aren't babies, they don't need our actions to be the basis for theirs

So foreign powers propping up brutal, extremist dictators has nothing to do with the culture, religion, and limitations in education?

[nik-]

less so than hadiths IMO

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by nik-

less so than hadiths IMO

Okay, let's follow that thread then. Why are some Islamic sects and regions more devouted to the hadiths than others?

[RougeUnderoos]

ISIS has flat-out told the world what they are after and it's not revenge for colonialism or anything like that. They want their big kingdom and their crazy religion to rule the world.

But it cannot be denied that western meddling/invading lead directly to the current situation. And that meddling ain't ancient history.

This isn't self-loathing or western guilt. It's just obvious. Look where they have taken their stand. It's not a coincidence.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Okay, let's follow that thread then. Why are some Islamic sects and regions more devouted to the hadiths than others?

Does following this thread end with you saying it's colonialism?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

ISIS has flat-out told the world what they are after and it's not revenge for colonialism or anything like that. They want their big kingdom and their crazy religion to rule the world.

But it cannot be denied that western meddling/invading lead directly to the current situation. And that meddling ain't ancient history.

This isn't self-loathing or western guilt. It's just obvious. Look where they have taken their stand. It's not a coincidence.

So these are different things. The situation in Iraq right now is a result of the invasion for sure, but it's not the creator, it's the enabler.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by nik-

Does following this thread end with you saying it's colonialism?

Not really. I was actually genuinely curious what you thought. I see a brutal dictatorship like KSA being propped up by the West and see no chance for reformation and a concerted effort to stamp out dissent, which would seem like an obvious reason as to why wahhabism has such a stronghold there. So yeah, I can accept that the religious element is at the root of the problem but that the West has also had a hand in the developments there.

You could also look at the rise of the ayatollahs as a response to the Shah and the fallout from that as to why Iran is in the shape it's in. Most of the reformists and moderates were either killed or fled the country.

I'm all ears for alternative explanations.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by nik-

So these are different things. The situation in Iraq right now is a result of the invasion for sure, but it's not the creator, it's the enabler.

This was basically my point, so obviously I didn't convey it very well.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Not really. I was actually genuinely curious what you thought. I see a brutal dictatorship like KSA being propped up by the West and see no chance for reformation and a concerted effort to stamp out dissent, which would seem like an obvious reason as to why wahhabism has such a stronghold there. So yeah, I can accept that the religious element is at the root of the problem but that the West has also had a hand in the developments there.

You could also look at the rise of the ayatollahs as a response to the Shah and the fallout from that as to why Iran is in the shape it's in. Most of the reformists and moderates were either killed or fled the country.

I'm all ears for alternative explanations.

But this type of thing should be consistent in other places if it weren't really the religion. Colonialism, resource robbing and dictator prop up was just as bad or worse in other regions. We should at least have a couple examples of consistent international terrorism against the west if these were significant factors.

They just aren't. A factor, sure, but not significant.

As for why Wahhabism is so supported ... I'm not sure. Perhaps it's just as simple as "it was born there". The house of Saud supported it long before we were there.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by nik-

So these are different things. The situation in Iraq right now is a result of the invasion for sure, but it's not the creator, it's the enabler.

Are you saying this was inevitable?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Are you saying this was inevitable?

Which part are you referring to?

I'm suggesting there's a pretty big divide between granting the stage and writing the play.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by nik-

Which part are you referring to?

I'm suggesting there's a pretty big divide between granting the stage and writing the play.

The way I read it, the crazy was already there (created) and the invasion just gave it a place to happen (the enabling). As though it was going to happen sometime, somewhere (inevitable).

[oldschoolcalgary]

Still awaiting for the facts to come out, but there is certainly a strong possibility this is simply the work of a lone nut with delusions of "grandeur"...

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The whole ISIS thing has very little to do with anger over colonialism and a lot to do with a wacko fundementalist bat #### crazy interpretation of the Koran.

They lose any justification since they are going to war against other Muslims and religions, oh and raping young girls.

They don't want revenge, they want the return of god to earth.

This part of the whole 'fundamentalist islam' group is frequently glossed over in favour of discussing religion and history, but a large number of men in this movement are in it solely for the feeling of power that it gives them. Dedication to religion is just lip service.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

The way I read it, the crazy was already there (created) and the invasion just gave it a place to happen (the enabling). As though it was going to happen sometime, somewhere (inevitable).

What do you mean by "it" though? ISIS? Jihadism? Terrorism?

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by nik-

So these are different things. The situation in Iraq right now is a result of the invasion for sure, but it's not the creator, it's the enabler.

not sure how you are parsing the difference between creating and enabling....

Isil, for example, arose because of the Iraq war and the "disbanding" of the Iraqi army...

Sadly, blowback has been happening time and again, even when the west is going in with good intentions...That's not western "self loathing"; there are multiple historical incidents where western intervetion in the middle east has resulted in negative unintended consequences.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

not sure how you are parsing the difference between creating and enabling....

Isil, for example, arose because of the Iraq war and the "disbanding" of the Iraqi army...

Sadly, blowback has been happening time and again, even when the west is going in with good intentions...That's not western "self loathing"; there are multiple historical incidents where western intervetion in the middle east has resulted in negative unintended consequences.

I don't consider ISIS the problem. I consider them the symptom.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by nik-

What do you mean by "it" though? ISIS? Jihadism? Terrorism?

By "it" I mean the place for a group like ISIS to take over and start expanding, and becoming what they are (or hopefully were).

That the "home base" was created by western meddling was the point. Which I think you agreed with, I think.

[nik-]

This portion was enabled yes, but a "home base" still has to be a home base for something. If you consider ISIS as the be all end all and the problem, then your outlook on Western impact is going to be different than mine. I don't consider them that, they're just the current flavour.