2016 Garbage bag day @ the dome

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

You could post it on your Law Blog.

The Bob Loblaw Law Blog?

Mmmm, that's a mouthful.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

But Hartley also said him and Trevy are like partners and that Hartley did what's in the best interest of the organization, which not a lot of coaches are willing to do. If Hartley was only protecting his job, things would've been different:

1) Raymond wouldn't have made the team out of camp over Byron
2) Ortio wouldve been lost on waivers
3) Hamilton would've probably been scratched early on
4) Hiller and Backstrom wouldn't have gotten all those starts at the end

Keep in mind Hartley is not a micromanager. Gelinas is being groomed and was given fre reign of the special teams, good or bad. So when your a company man and a team player, then your less likely to be thrown under the bus.

Are these comments Hartley's or Trelivings, or just yours?

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

But Hartley also said him and Trevy are like partners and that Hartley did what's in the best interest of the organization, which not a lot of coaches are willing to do. If Hartley was only protecting his job, things would've been different:

1) Raymond wouldn't have made the team out of camp over Byron
2) Ortio wouldve been lost on waivers
3) Hamilton would've probably been scratched early on
4) Hiller and Backstrom wouldn't have gotten all those starts at the end

Keep in mind Hartley is not a micromanager. Gelinas is being groomed and was given fre reign of the special teams, good or bad. So when your a company man and a team player, then your less likely to be thrown under the bus.

What's Gelinas being groomed for? Is Hartley grooming him to take Hartley's job? I doubt that is happening.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by New Era

Are these comments Hartley's or Trelivings, or just yours?

I think it is mostly made up ####.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Flip side is he does and then people go "oh no, the dreaded "vote of confidence" from the GM. Hartley's as good as gone!"

It's a no win.

The vote of confidence "kiss of death" has a different context to it. It is done mid-season, in the middle of a bad losing stretch. It's a last ditch effort to show confidence in the coach. When a GM states they are keeping their coach, it's usually an honest comment. See: Boudreau, Therrien, Hartley earlier in the year.

At a garbage day presser it carries more weight because there are no games to change his mind.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

I think the special teams really turned the corner late in the season.

PK: Seemed much better when the players were let off the leash to try and attack while on the PK. We scored and it seemed to cause opponents a moment of pause coming up the ice.

PP: The Hamilton to first unit move was terrific. Completely different unit out there than when Wideman was in the spot.

PK: When you are 30th playing like the 25th best penalty killing unit will seem like it's turning the corner but in reality still not good enough especially seeing PK has not been great in any season of the current staff's tenure.

PP: Hamilton is arguably the best powerplay QB on the team which doesn't exactly put the coaching staff in a good light seeing it took a Wideman suspension to get Hamilton on the top unit. Honestly if he doesn't get suspended would anyone be surprised if by the end of the season he's still struggling on the top unit? I wouldn't be surprised at all.

The new Ottawa GM came in and pretty well fired the entire staff in part based on special teams that were not quite as bad as the Flames. I don't think Treliving has lower standards than Dorion so I expect that management will not take this lightly. I still believe Hartley will get one more season but IMO he's going to be on extremely thin ice and there will probably be a contingency plan in place to replace him in season in the case the team gets off to another poor start.

[blender]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

PK: When you are 30th playing like the 25th best penalty killing unit will seem like it's turning the corner but in reality still not good enough especially seeing PK has not been great in any season of the current staff's tenure.

PP: Hamilton is arguably the best powerplay QB on the team which doesn't exactly put the coaching staff in a good light seeing it took a Wideman suspension to get Hamilton on the top unit. Honestly if he doesn't get suspended would anyone be surprised if by the end of the season he's still struggling on the top unit? I wouldn't be surprised at all.

The new Ottawa GM came in and pretty well fired the entire staff in part based on special teams that were not quite as bad as the Flames. I don't think Treliving has lower standards than Dorion so I expect that management will not take this lightly. I still believe Hartley will get one more season but IMO he's going to be on extremely thin ice and there will probably be a contingency plan in place to replace him in season in the case the team gets off to another poor start.

Quoted for truth.

[saillias]

I don't understand the strategy that many expect here of keeping Hartley on a short leash and giving him a couple months. If you already have a plan/expectation to fire and replace a guy then do it now. Don't wait for a new 15 game sample to figure it out. He's been here for 3 years, you know what he is.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by saillias

I don't understand the strategy that many expect here of keeping Hartley on a short leash and giving him a couple months. If you already have a plan/expectation to fire and replace a guy then do it now. Don't wait for a new 15 game sample to figure it out. He's been here for 3 years, you know what he is.

I agree that if you have to think about firing him mid season that you should probably just move on but it goes both ways. He's got plenty of ammunition to fire the staff but he may feel he owes Hartley one more season with a better starting goaltender (fair IMO) and if that's the case then he still has to cover his bases in the case things go poorly as from his presser I get the feeling that they will do whatever is necessary to make the playoffs and won't give the head coach time to shore things up if they can't get the ship on course early.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by saillias

I don't understand the strategy that many expect here of keeping Hartley on a short leash and giving him a couple months. If you already have a plan/expectation to fire and replace a guy then do it now. Don't wait for a new 15 game sample to figure it out. He's been here for 3 years, you know what he is.

One of those years was 1st year of a rebuild with an 18 year old top line centre and a lot of line up holes. Despite that, and a low standings placement, they were praised for their hard work and entertaining game.

One of those years was a surprise playoff birth and 2nd round appearance capped by a Jack Adams win.

One of those years was this year, the problems we all know.

So he's had one bad season out of those three IMO. I don't think it's a reason to fire him. Nothing wrong with giving him another shot, if they have another rough start, fire him. It's not a plan or expectation, it's a contingency.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

PK: When you are 30th playing like the 25th best penalty killing unit will seem like it's turning the corner but in reality still not good enough especially seeing PK has not been great in any season of the current staff's tenure.

PP: Hamilton is arguably the best powerplay QB on the team which doesn't exactly put the coaching staff in a good light seeing it took a Wideman suspension to get Hamilton on the top unit. Honestly if he doesn't get suspended would anyone be surprised if by the end of the season he's still struggling on the top unit? I wouldn't be surprised at all.

The new Ottawa GM came in and pretty well fired the entire staff in part based on special teams that were not quite as bad as the Flames. I don't think Treliving has lower standards than Dorion so I expect that management will not take this lightly. I still believe Hartley will get one more season but IMO he's going to be on extremely thin ice and there will probably be a contingency plan in place to replace him in season in the case the team gets off to another poor start.

I do think the 'we need to win more faceoffs on the PK' excuse is a bit weak as well.

Sure it would help, the Flames were 3rd last in FO% while SH, but its not a cure all.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I agree that if you have to think about firing him mid season that you should probably just move on but it goes both ways. He's got plenty of ammunition to fire the staff but he may feel he owes Hartley one more season with a better starting goaltender (fair IMO) and if that's the case then he still has to cover his bases in the case things go poorly as from his presser I get the feeling that they will do whatever is necessary to make the playoffs and won't give the head coach time to shore things up if they can't get the ship on course early.

I'm pretty suer they will end up giving Hartely the "short leash extension" for next year. As you said they will give him the bennifit of the doubt and get him a goaltender. That said the other poster makes a great point. If you end up firing Hartely a month in, and now the coaches left are so-so, you pretty much have lost the season.

My prediction is Hartley stays, Gelinas is gone, and they will hire an associate coach with heavy experience. Got the feeling that the GM will be doing the hiring of the associate coach with Hartley having little say on the matter. If Hartley stumbles then associate coach will take over for rest of year. They sure as hell are not going to have Gelinas as an interm coach if Hartely flounders. Still i think if it goes down with Hartley being let go in mid season that the season will probably be lost. Hoping Hartley can adjust and keep his job.

[Otto-matic]

Originally Posted by MattyC

One of those years was 1st year of a rebuild with an 18 year old top line centre and a lot of line up holes. Despite that, and a low standings placement, they were praised for their hard work and entertaining game.

One of those years was a surprise playoff birth and 2nd round appearance capped by a Jack Adams win.

One of those years was this year, the problems we all know.

So he's had one bad season out of those three IMO. I don't think it's a reason to fire him. Nothing wrong with giving him another shot, if they have another rough start, fire him. It's not a plan or expectation, it's a contingency.

Don't forget his first year here in Calgary,

The complete tear down of the old Flames regime. He had to deal with a awful lineup, with Kipper ready to retire into the sunset.

I'd give Hartley another season.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by New Era

Are these comments Hartley's or Trelivings, or just yours?

Some of it was quoted by Hartley in the post season presser. For example, Hartley said something like "tried to reinvent goaltending" and "we all know why that was" when referring to deciding why three goalies were kept. So reading between the lines (plus I recall Hartley saying in previous presses that he doesn't like carrying 3 goalies), I interpret that as Trevy/Burke deciding to keep Ortio in the mix in order to prevent him from being claimed off waivers.

A few Hiller starts were controversal as the season was expiring and looked like a tank job. I can't see Hartley wanting to put a clearly worst player on the ice unless he was told otherwise.

Hartley also spoke very highly of Byron many times when Byron was here. Byron was also given good minutes for a 4th liner (nearly 15 minutes on average last year), so it was clear to me he was well liked by Hartley, whereas Raymond eventually got sent down when he wasn't producing. That's an educated guess on our part because Byron being sent down was spoken very highly of by Hartley, whereas Raymond wasn't (to the same extent).

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

What's Gelinas being groomed for? Is Hartley grooming him to take Hartley's job? I doubt that is happening.

Gelinas is being groomed to be a coach, just as all assistant coaches are? Every assistant dreams about owning their own bench, and it's bad taste to block people from getting the opportunities to do so. Gelinas draws up a lot from the bench with no input from Hartley, especially on the power play. Some managers don't look at every dotted "I" in all their subordinates work, instead all them to make their own mistakes. That's how I operate as manager to my staff anyways.

[Bingo]

Had a quick look at the trends for special teams and it's interesting. Everything is improving but you have to be careful to assume an improvement when the team is playing out the string will have the lift to change things for next year.

Penalty Killing
Terrible from games 15 to 30, essentially killing their season. Good run to game 55 then falls off the cliff again. Excellent later on when things look lost. Overall trend of rolling 5 game looks has them improve from 72% to 78% through the season.


Powerplay
This one much more optimistic to me. Terrible from games 15 to 35 but then pretty consistently good after that and clearly trending in the right direction. This one looks "fixed" to me compared to the PK stats.


Special Team Goals
Finally throw percentages out the window and look at straight special team goals as a positive or negative influence. Team was a sink hole until game 35, then did well for a spell but went back into the tank again. Recovery in goal differential all comes after the team is playing out the string.

[Par]

Originally Posted by AC

Treliving said they have a feeling Gillies would be exempt from expansion draft protection as it stands.

Suggests adding a goalie this off-season wouldn't have to be short term.

This is just ludacris, either you know, if he is exempt from expansion draft or not, "having a feeling" on this situation is not good, make sure you know.

[bax]

Originally Posted by Par

This is just ludacris, either you know, if he is exempt from expansion draft or not, "having a feeling" on this situation is not good, make sure you know.

It's not his fault. The exact rules haven't been released yet. They will be at some point before the draft. So no, not ludacris.

[Par]

Originally Posted by bax

It's not his fault. The exact rules haven't been released yet. They will be at some point before the draft. So no, not ludacris.

I did not say it is all his fault(I would call the league and tell them give a exact answer), I think this is expansion thing is not well thought out, it is just go to Las Vegas and/or Quebec City and grab the $500 Million or the $1 billion that is going to come with this.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Par

This is just ludacris, either you know, if he is exempt from expansion draft or not, "having a feeling" on this situation is not good, make sure you know.

What does he have to do with any of this?


Oh, you meant ludicrous.