Does Sven have a future with the Flames?

[ThatsRobbery]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

I agree with most of your statements here, but I'll be blunt: Baertschi was the first prospect I was excited about since Phaneuf. Before Monahan and Bennett, he was also the highest 1st round pick we'd had since Phaneuf. None of those other players drafted in that time were ever projected to be top 6 forwards or top 4 defensemen. He then went on to post unreal numbers in the WHL his next year and followed it up with a 5 game call up where he looked ready to contribute that day, at least offensively.

If anyone gave me unrealistic expectations for Sven, it was Sven. He performed at an incredibly high level and projected to be a 1st line player in the NHL. The fact that just a few years later, not only is he not a 1st line NHL player, but if he even makes it, which isn't a sure thing at all, it will be at best a 2nd line winger, well that's pretty disappointing. That's not getting overly excited about a prospect on my part, that's following his progression and his pedigree, and then putting realistic expectations on where he should be at certain points in his timeline.

If Baertschi has his detractors now, and I'm not necessarily even one of them, it's likely because he simply hasn't come close to living up to his potential, while some guys like Jooris, and to a lesser extent Bouma, kicked down the door to the NHL when they got their chances. I have a greater amount of respect for guys that make the most of the opportunities they're given.

I agree with most of this Sven really started his own hype train. I think a lot of it had to do with the fact he was our only legitimate top prospect since Phaneuf, so when we saw what he was doing at the junior level and in his emergency call-up, it did make expectations in our minds realistically high.

Now anything that doesn't hit that level is a grave disappointment. He does deserves much of the criticism he has received, but I also think he gets so much of it due to how we felt about him 2-3 years ago. Always thought he needed some AHL seasoning and he really didn't earn his NHL spot his first year but was better last year playing with Hudler and Monahan. I think anyone picked at his draft position usually needs a few years of AHL time but he was rushed due to his 5 game stint.

He's definitely I think our most interesting prospect in that if he can regain anywhere close to the Sven we saw, he is a huge addition to the future as not many of our other prospects possess the skill he could add to our top 6.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

You mean Gaudreau? Gaudreau has passed most of the NHL on the depth chart. He's producing at nearly a PPG pace in his rookie season. That's incredibly rare and his point production makes him a top-6 player on just about every team. You can't be disappointed with Baertschi because Gaudreau passed him. Be excited or disappointed with Baertschi for who he is or isn't, not for not being Johnny Gaudreau.



Same thing. If Johnny Gaudreau is your expectation for 21 year old wingers, you're going to spend the vast majority of your time as a sports fan disappointed. For every Gaudreau any organization sees, that same organization sees 30 Ryan Howses.

Nobody is thinking Gaudreau. He's obviously a rare talent. There are still plenty of players who passed Baertschi on the depth chart.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

As opposed to guys that have an agenda to bring out the pom poms and fiercely defend the player like he has a vested interest? We all know some of the loudest posters when it comes to Sven are pro-Baertschi so I just find the comment a little odd. Two sides to ever story and both can be equally annoying to others. At the end of the day all the comments I see for and against are totally fair at this point and don't see any reason to disparage either side from posting their opinion.

Except this is a forum for Flames fans. So while yes, there are those that defend players and do so to the tone of it being overzealous, they really don't compare to those who make their passtime an agenda to piss all over certain players because they want to appear correct about some asinine comments they made early in the developmental process.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I doubt anyone here is cheering for any of those guys to fail

Maybe not consciously, but as I pointed out, take that guy who hates Backlund as an example. He spouted a bunch of nonsense about him early in his career and now his primary agenda is to stubbornly and blindly stick to his guns about him regardless of how much he's improved.

I'm not saying everyone who's critical of certain prospects are like that, but that is the most extreme case, and it's something a fair number of people do whether they're conscious of it or not. They want to sound like they know how someone is going to pan out early on in the process, spout a bunch of negative nonsense, and then spend the ensuing months and years subconsciously rooting against said player because of their entrenched premature opinion and wanting to sound like they were right all along.

Not saying everyone who's critical does it, but there are a fair number who do this.

[getoverit]

Im thinking Bennett is our most interesting prospect

Originally Posted by ThatsRobbery

I agree with most of this Sven really started his own hype train. I think a lot of it had to do with the fact he was our only legitimate top prospect since Phaneuf, so when we saw what he was doing at the junior level and in his emergency call-up, it did make expectations in our minds realistically high.

Now anything that doesn't hit that level is a grave disappointment. He does deserves much of the criticism he has received, but I also think he gets so much of it due to how we felt about him 2-3 years ago. Always thought he needed some AHL seasoning and he really didn't earn his NHL spot his first year but was better last year playing with Hudler and Monahan. I think anyone picked at his draft position usually needs a few years of AHL time but he was rushed due to his 5 game stint.

He's definitely I think our most interesting prospect in that if he can regain anywhere close to the Sven we saw, he is a huge addition to the future as not many of our other prospects possess the skill he could add to our top 6.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by ThatsRobbery

I agree with most of this Sven really started his own hype train. I think a lot of it had to do with the fact he was our only legitimate top prospect since Phaneuf, so when we saw what he was doing at the junior level and in his emergency call-up, it did make expectations in our minds realistically high.

Now anything that doesn't hit that level is a grave disappointment. He does deserves much of the criticism he has received, but I also think he gets so much of it due to how we felt about him 2-3 years ago. Always thought he needed some AHL seasoning and he really didn't earn his NHL spot his first year but was better last year playing with Hudler and Monahan. I think anyone picked at his draft position usually needs a few years of AHL time but he was rushed due to his 5 game stint.

He's definitely I think our most interesting prospect in that if he can regain anywhere close to the Sven we saw, he is a huge addition to the future as not many of our other prospects possess the skill he could add to our top 6.

Firstly, I'll say that I knew he was going to need time in the AHL, as almost all good prospects do. He has performed rather poorly in the AHL considering what he did in junior. Even now, he has 95 games of experience in the AHL and 69 points in that time frame. That would be fine except his PPG is regressing over that period of time. It went from 26 points in 32 games his first year (0.81 PPG), which were respectable numbers for any first year pro top prospect, to 29 points in 41 games last year (0.71 PPG), and this year he's got 14 points in 22 games (0.64 PPG). He should have gone the other way at this point, at least offensively, and be over a PPG player in the minors after 3 years and nearly 100 games. It's a bad sign and that is mostly on the player.

Secondly, he had holes in his game that were obvious to most who watch the game. He wasn't strong enough on puck battles and he lacked defensive zone awareness. Those should have been improved upon in the minors but he's only made marginal improvements over 3 years. You don't have to be a big bulking player to be difficult to play against, just ask Paul Byron. You don't have to be physical to win puck battles, just ask Johnny Gaudreau.

Sven's lack of progression on the poorer parts of his game, and his clear regression on the strength of his game, is a considerable disappointment to me and others. If people are upset at Sven and decide to post negative points about him, I can't blame them in the slightest.

And now the caveat, he's only 22 and he still has time to figure it out, but that time is running out quickly.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Maybe not consciously, but as I pointed out, take that guy who hates Backlund as an example. He spouted a bunch of nonsense about him early in his career and now his primary agenda is to stubbornly and blindly stick to his guns about him regardless of how much he's improved.

I'm not saying everyone who's critical of certain prospects are like that, but that is the most extreme case, and it's something a fair number of people do whether they're conscious of it or not. They want to sound like they know how someone is going to pan out early on in the process, spout a bunch of negative nonsense, and then spend the ensuing months and years subconsciously rooting against said player because of their entrenched premature opinion and wanting to sound like they were right all along.

Not saying everyone who's critical does it, but there are a fair number who do this.

Nobody has ever posted anything about Baertschi the way Where RU Chris O'Sullivan has posted about Backlund. It's a false equivalency.

I don't think Baertschi detractors are nearly as asinine as the Baertschi supporters. There's more to be concerned about with Sven than there is to be positive about.

[Walter Reed]

Does Reinhart have a future with Calgary ?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Nobody has ever posted anything about Baertschi the way Where RU Chris O'Sullivan has posted about Backlund. It's a false equivalency.

I don't think Baertschi detractors are nearly as asinine as the Baertschi supporters. There's more to be concerned about with Sven than there is to be positive about.

Maybe not to that degree, but there were a lot of people who conveniently flipped the switch on Sven the moment his game was criticized by Burkie.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by nik-

Maybe not to that degree, but there were a lot of people who conveniently flipped the switch on Sven the moment his game was criticized by Burkie.

Yes, those people do annoy me too. Think for yourselves dammit!

[J epworth]

Originally Posted by Walter Reed

Does Reinhart have a future with Calgary ?

I think he's going to need some luck (as all mid-level prospects need) to make the Flames at this point. Before training camp I would have said yes, but Jooris has really stole the position he would be filling on this team at this point. He will be back up again at some point for an injury recall and in that recall he will need to have everything he touches turn to goals to cement a future again with the Flames.

If he continues to play like he has (good play, but can be replaced by guys like Knight or Agostino or Arnold without any change to the outcome of Flames games) he will be just lost in the whole pile of prospects that are just almost good enough for this line-up.

So most likely I bet he ends up in the NHL, but with a team that has a bigger need for a guy like him, and gets added into a deal either this season or next.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Nobody has ever posted anything about Baertschi the way Where RU Chris O'Sullivan has posted about Backlund. It's a false equivalency.

I don't think Baertschi detractors are nearly as asinine as the Baertschi supporters. There's more to be concerned about with Sven than there is to be positive about.

I really can't be any more clear, having stated several times that is the most extreme example of a smaller symptom I'm referring to.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Walter Reed

Does Reinhart have a future with Calgary ?

Doubtful. He may somewhere, but too many guys have passed him for him to find a spot here. He really needed a better camp this year, but was invisible and guys like Jooris hoped over him.

[J epworth]

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Yes, those people do annoy me too. Think for yourselves dammit!

To be fair, it was the Burke comments that cooled me to Baertschi, but for good reason. It was the first time I really noticed that the enthusiasm and focus of Baertschi had really changed since he was in Portland, and it made me worried. Burke saying those comments put those worries to the forefront, and tempered my expectations quite a bit... which is probably exactly what Burke wanted from that speech.

[ThatsRobbery]

Originally Posted by getoverit

Im thinking Bennett is our most interesting prospect

See I dont agree in the sense at least I believe I know Bennett is going to be a top line player for us, where Sven could be that additional piece on that top 6 that currently we dont have besides Poirer.

Originally Posted by Cali Flames Fan

Firstly, I'll say that I knew he was going to need time in the AHL, as almost all good prospects do. He has performed rather poorly in the AHL considering what he did in junior. Even now, he has 95 games of experience in the AHL and 69 points in that time frame. That would be fine except his PPG is regressing over that period of time. It went from 26 points in 32 games his first year (0.81 PPG), which were respectable numbers for any first year pro top prospect, to 29 points in 41 games last year (0.71 PPG), and this year he's got 14 points in 22 games (0.64 PPG). He should have gone the other way at this point, at least offensively, and be over a PPG player in the minors after 3 years and nearly 100 games. It's a bad sign and that is mostly on the player.

Secondly, he had holes in his game that were obvious to most who watch the game. He wasn't strong enough on puck battles and he lacked defensive zone awareness. Those should have been improved upon in the minors but he's only made marginal improvements over 3 years. You don't have to be a big bulking player to be difficult to play against, just ask Paul Byron. You don't have to be physical to win puck battles, just ask Johnny Gaudreau.

Sven's lack of progression on the poorer parts of his game, and his clear regression on the strength of his game, is a considerable disappointment to me and others. If people are upset at Sven and decide to post negative points about him, I can't blame them in the slightest.

And now the caveat, he's only 22 and he still has time to figure it out, but that time is running out quickly.

I completely agree with this, it is a bad sign his numbers have regressed in the AHL as bad as they have, and he deserves the criticism he gets for those poor performances.

I just think a lot of the hate comes from the fact he wasn't a top line threat right out of junior that came with his emergency call up and people can't get seem to get over it. I preface that statement by stating I am a big Sven supporter so I might be looking at this through some rose-coloured glasses but I get that feeling sometimes when I read some people's thoughts of him.

Also not sure if being 22 means his time is running out quickly (maybe as a member of the Flames organization, but not as a NHL player). So sorry for the mini rant if its off-base but guess I just feel for the kid at times.

[ThatsRobbery]

Originally Posted by Walter Reed

Does Reinhart have a future with Calgary ?

He's kind of like the Sven this year in that he had a great year last year in the AHL (almost PPG), now has really regressed this year (0.32 PPG). Listening about him alst year seemed like he could of been a great 3rd line player for the team and now its hard to see a spot for him with Knight/Arnold maybe passing him without considering Granlund at centre and the other wingers. So I'd say no, which sucks cause I really thought Max was a top 9 forward in the future.

[Walter Reed]

Was kinda surprised Reinhart had only a rather pedestrian 10 pts after 31 games in the A.
Would have thought he would be a more impact player.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

This is the thing about Baertschi.
Gaudreau worked his way up the lineup, (including press box time).
Jooris worked his way up the lineup, (including press box time).
Granlund worked his way up the lineup, (including press box time).

When Sven can't, apologists blame the coach and the role he has been forced into.
Bottom line is working your way up is how this happens. And, so far, Baertschi has not been able to do so, where others (who have now passed Sven) have.

Except Sven never had the opportunities or ice-time that all three of those players were handed. Sven is the only player out of those 3 that played 4th line minutes EVERY night. Even in his 2 assist night, setting up two Byron goals he only had 10:12 of ice. The next night he had 10:43 with another assist. The next game? 7:10.

Avg Ice:

Baertschi: 8:55 (Most ice 11:02. Least 6:35)
Granlund: 14:51 (Most ice 20:33. Least 11:19)
Jooris: 15:39 (Most ice 20:47. Least 7:00)
Gaudreau: 16:40 (Most ice 22:17. Least 10:31)

Its fine to say that those guys worked their way up the lineup, but watching every game it was obvious they were given the ice time to make something happen where Sven was not. And before people start saying it was because they earned this ice-time go back and look at the amount of ice they got from day one and the linemates they were put with.

None of them got the 4th line time and linemates.

I'm fine that Sven has been sent down and is doing well in Addy, because to keep him here wasting away on the 4th line wasn't doing anything for him or the team. He was never put into a position to succeed.

[CSharp]

Flames have 4 really small guys: Russel, Gaudreau, Byron, and Baertschi
What does each have:
1) Russell - mobile 2nd/3rd pairing defenseman
2) Gaudreau - really good puck control with good vision on ice
- great hockey sense
- kind of reminds you of someone like Gretzky, but on a Flames team
3) Byron - got speed that can burn through the defense
4) Baerschti - he's as tall Russell but plays like a midget/bantom.
- the way I see it and what a lot of people also view the same way is that there's really nothing special about Baertschi, except that he's got most of the vowels except missing the "o" in his last name. Flames currently have a few more minor leaguers who are itching to get into the big leagues and they're better than Baertschi right now.

Baertschi has to bring a lot more to the Flames lineup in order for him to make it up here or anywhere in this NHL or he'll just end up like another Fata or Domenichelli. I'd love to see him have a skill like that of Gaudreau and the Flames need more players like that.

[Red Menace]

I certainly agree that he was never put in much of a position to succeed, and I think the Flames org failed him, which is surprising since they've handled so many others very well.
In any case it doesn't much matter now...for whatever reason his value has decreased considerably and the chances of him being an impact player with the Flames are getting smaller and smaller. Not all players should be treated equally no matter what nonsense many people like to spout.
Hopefully he can gain some traction next season.