YLYL Thread and other things...

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by ae118

You didn't understand my point (and you've been editing your responses after my replies).

I'm not talking about biology. Of course men and women are different. What's your point? That it's not demeaning to call someone a girl in a derogatory way because on average, women aren't as strong as men? If that's your argument, I'm not sure what to say, other than to offer condolences to any women in your life.

But women aren't as strong as men. Have we got to the point where calling a person "chicken" will elicit people calling them out for demeaning chicken? Honestly it's getting completely ridiculous.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by ae118

"What It feels Like For A Girl"

[Spoken:]
Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
'Cause it's OK to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading
...

The funny thing is that many females are just as guilty as males for shaming men who are "feminine".

There is a simple biological fact that the majority of both males and females are attracted to secondary sexual characteristics and those characteristics are often displayed by the clothing and styles that they present,and having short hair or wearing jeans, shirts and boots do not mask these in most women, where as women's clothing do accentuate female characteristics. In some cases when women do mask their feminine traits with "male" clothes and such, they are looked down upon and referred to as "butch". Not that I personally condone derogatory talk like that, but I am sure all of us have witnessed such things. Is it because it is degrading to be a boy in that scenario, or just a girl that looks like a boy?

Men face many of the same stereotype and body image issues that women face.

Also, I take slight offense to the quote because it also indirectly implies that boys should be identified with short hair. Historically, hair length being associated with gender is newer fashion. I've had longish hair most of my life.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The funny thing is that many females are just as guilty as males for shaming men who are "feminine".

There is a simple biological fact that the majority of both males and females are attracted to secondary sexual characteristics and those characteristics are often displayed by the clothing and styles that they present (and having short hair or wearing jeans, shirts and boots do not mask these in most women). In some cases when women do mask their feminine traits with "male" clothes and such, they are looked down upon and referred to as "butch". Not that I personally condone derogatory talk like that, but I am sure all of us have witnessed such things. Is it because it is degrading to be a boy in that scenario, or just a girl that looks like a boy?

Men face many of the same stereotype and body image issues that women face.

Also, I take slight offense to the quote because it also indirectly implies that boys should be identified with short hair. Historically, hair length being associated with gender is newer fashion. I've had longish hair most of my life.

One of the first things I was told when I went to post-secondary school by an instructor was to lose the long hair and earrings if I ever wanted to get a job in my field. Men are judged differently.

[JonDuke]

Originally Posted by Moderator

...
To that end, in addition to removing the thread, we will be:
- Expanding the moderation team with an aim to bring in moderators that can give us a broader view point. We will look for strong moderator candidates first, but we hope to find one or more that represent some of the specific groups on this site (e.g. female, LGBT).
- We are working to update our guidelines to be more specific about our stance on sexist, racist, homophobic and other such comments
- We will enforce those comments more strictly. We recognize the bulk of them are made to be humorous but they are become less and less acceptable in today’s world and we will adjust our moderation as such. This will not mean doling out tons of infractions – we will start by giving people warnings and discussing with them how their posting behavior needs to be adjusted

We welcome any questions

Not sure if it's already been mentioned here, but I'll be that guy that hopes that the word "fag" gets hashtagged out, when those new rules and guidelines come out.

The word has a few uses, and even an IATA airport code. And yes, I know the popular excuse is that it's British slang for a cigarette, but the word has no relevant use in today's age. Hiding behind that as justification when the word is used is straight up ignorant and our community, as a whole, is better than that. It's a derogatory slur, and has no useful purpose whatsoever in today's world.

[alltherage]

It's too bad. The original intent of the thread was to appreciate beautiful women- and it turned into a soft-core porn thread that completely objectified them.

[Nehkara]

Originally Posted by ae118

You didn't understand my point (and you've been editing your responses after my replies).

I'm not talking about biology. Of course men and women are different. What's your point? That it's not demeaning to call someone a girl in a derogatory way because on average, women aren't as strong as men? If that's your argument, I'm not sure what to say, other than to offer condolences to any women in your life.

I'm on Erick Estrada's side on this one.

It is considered demeaning to say a woman is manly and to say a man is womanly.

I don't see any inequality there.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

But women aren't as strong as men. Have we got to the point where calling a person "chicken" will elicit people calling them out for demeaning chicken? Honestly it's getting completely ridiculous.

So women are like chickens then?

And men are what, Lions?

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The funny thing is that many females are just as guilty as males for shaming men who are "feminine".

There is a simple biological fact that the majority of both males and females are attracted to secondary sexual characteristics and those characteristics are often displayed by the clothing and styles that they present (and having short hair or wearing jeans, shirts and boots do not mask these in most women). In some cases when women do mask their feminine traits with "male" clothes and such, they are looked down upon and referred to as "butch". Not that I personally condone derogatory talk like that, but I am sure all of us have witnessed such things. Is it because it is degrading to be a boy in that scenario, or just a girl that looks like a boy?

Men face many of the same stereotype and body image issues that women face.

Also, I take slight offense to the quote because it also indirectly implies that boys should be identified with short hair. Historically, hair length being associated with gender is newer fashion. I've had longish hair most of my life.

But shouldn't we use that fact to better our behaviour when we realize we are sexually stereotyping women (like the Sedin Sisters example) rather than use it to excuse our behaviour?

Whether that fact is true or not, (and I'd agree it's close to true, maybe not quite the same extent, but perhaps more than some people would want to admit) we should use it to realize the damage we do, rather than using it to excuse ourselves. Thereby enriching the experience for both genders.

As far as the secondary sexual characteristics, that is an interesting argument, which I do want to say more about later, because I think when it comes to sex, it is far more complicated and nuanced. But everything outside of that, gender roles in work, sports, politics, etc., we really shouldn't be stereotyping.

[_Q_]

I say fag should be censored because it's offensive but sh*t shouldn't since I doubt anyone is offended by that word anymore.

[ae118]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

But women aren't as strong as men. Have we got to the point where calling a person "chicken" will elicit people calling them out for demeaning chicken? Honestly it's getting completely ridiculous.

You're still missing my point. It's degrading to call someone female in a derogatory way, whether it be "you throw like a girl" or "stop crying like a sissy" or something else.

[rotten42]

The thing is no matter at what level you moderate somebody is going to find a way to be offended by something. That's just the way our society has become. Get offended....then make it everybody else's business and force your morality on them to accept your viewpoint.

[Nehkara]

Originally Posted by ae118

You're still missing my point. It's degrading to call someone female in a derogatory way, whether it be "you throw like a girl" or "stop crying like a sissy" or something else.

Yes... and it's degrading to call a female male in a derogatory way.

[ae118]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The funny thing is that many females are just as guilty as males for shaming men who are "feminine".

There is a simple biological fact that the majority of both males and females are attracted to secondary sexual characteristics and those characteristics are often displayed by the clothing and styles that they present,and having short hair or wearing jeans, shirts and boots do not mask these in most women, where as women's clothing do accentuate female characteristics. In some cases when women do mask their feminine traits with "male" clothes and such, they are looked down upon and referred to as "butch". Not that I personally condone derogatory talk like that, but I am sure all of us have witnessed such things. Is it because it is degrading to be a boy in that scenario, or just a girl that looks like a boy?

Men face many of the same stereotype and body image issues that women face.

Also, I take slight offense to the quote because it also indirectly implies that boys should be identified with short hair. Historically, hair length being associated with gender is newer fashion. I've had longish hair most of my life.

Thanks, FlamesAddiction - for pointing out wider issues of gender discrimination. The fact that these issues also certainly factor into the discussion doesn't mean that calling the Sedins "sisters" is okay, however.

I'm sorry for any offense with the quote. It was the quickest and simplest way I could think of to illustrate the point (although apparently that didn't work...). It wasn't meant to say that only this particular situation exists.

[ae118]

Originally Posted by Nehkara

Yes... and it's degrading to call a female male in a derogatory way.

I've never said otherwise.

[Eastern Girl]

Originally Posted by -TC-

Although I risk being being consumed by your thresher of moral outrage, I'd like to point out that you are, in FACT, a hypocrite.

If you really meant the things you said, you would never have had that avatar in the first place, let alone state that you will wait to be TOLD to take it down.

I hold your opinions and actions in the same place as the women who speak out against gender bias, sexism, misogyny, etc, etc....and then run to the theater to see Magic Mike and post about it on fB.


Having said all that, I don't care one way or another if the Powers That Be decide to be 'more inclusive' and tear down the YLYL thread. I don't come here for that.

It's a FACT? Not just a fact.
Thresher of moral outrage?
Come on now, I know this is an emotional topic for me, but I still feel I've responded to posts rationally and reasonably. I'm not spewing man hating venom everywhere, so please stop with that kind nonsense.

I am sorry to hear you hold my opinion in such low regard. As I noted above, I've tried very hard to be reasonable and make rational arguments.

I put the avatar up in the first place because any time I posted a picture of a man on the board, I got such a thresher of moral outrage from the guys on the site that are now defending the girly thread. It seemed unfair that I should not be able to post the same kinds of pictures that all you guys get to post without recourse. I received a couple of comments/PMs complaining about it. I guess we are all hypocrites.

I didn't flock to the theatre to see Magic Mike. I thought it looked dumb. I did however see it on DVD, without having pre-ordered it from Amazon months in advance while marking the release date on my calendar with red lipstick. I just walked in to Wal-mart, all casual-like, saw it and thought, "why not?"

I imagine the reason why so many women did go to see it in the theatre and were excited about it is because we so rarely get to see things like that. We see boobs and ass on a daily basis, in every possible venue, not so much with the moose knuckles. Perhaps some women got carried away with it. But what was funny about that movie was that it was about male strippers, but the most you saw with a bit of ass crack, but there was still a fair bit of T&A/female nudity.

I don't think anyone should have to take down their avatars, male or female. I don't really care about them. If the mods decide it, then let it be so.

Not sure what else I can say? There are too many "what ifs" being posted that I can't keep up. Frankly, some of them I am really not sure how to respond. It's good from a discussion stand point. We can talk about everything and find what is right for the community as a whole.

[Iceman57]

Originally Posted by Iceman57

Ok well now if you wanted to create a thread to share your avatar with fellow CPers i wouldnt have a problem with that as i could choose whether or not i wanted to participate in it but here or in any other thread you are forcing me to see it.

The mods must absolutely continue this crusade of equality that they started by deleting the YLYL thread. They now need to force others with inappropriate avatars to change them immediately. Why wait? My suggestion to you instead of being a hypocrite by now applying our argument against us (which obviously didnt work) would be to remove it voluntarily.

Originally Posted by Eastern Girl

That first sentence was sarcasm. Just giving back the same tired stuff I heard repeatedly before. Taste of your own medicine or some such thing.

Crusade of inequality? First of all, it would be a crusade for equality. We are trying to be inclusive, not exclusive. Doesn't matter though, because it's not a crusade. Please don't paint our desire to want less sexism on the board as though we are all hoping the board turns into a great place to talk about paint drying.

I don't think I am being a hypocrite. I expressed my opinions about a thread on the board, not anyone's avatar. I will take down my topless oily Regehr if all the guys with boob/ass avatars take theirs down. I don't personally feel that's necessary that we all take our avatars down, however if the mods decide that's fair and in line with community expectations, I will do so.

I understood it was sarcasm but applying it to your avatar doesn't hold the same validity since its not located in a separate thread but rather shows up everywhere that you post. I never mentioned anything about the forum becoming monotonous through this newly inspired crusade but i find it telling that you would. You are absolutely being a hypocrite, how can you complain about sexism regarding the thread but then become indifferent when it comes to our avatars? There is no poll needed here or opinions to be taken, by deleting the YLYL the mods have made it clear that objectifying pictures have no place in CP and in turn that should apply to either gender.

Your oily Regehr is exactly that, it objectifies men and it along with any other inappropriate avatars, should be deleted immediately.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by JonDuke

Not sure if it's already been mentioned here, but I'll be that guy that hopes that the word "fag" gets hashtagged out, when those new rules and guidelines come out.

The word has a few uses, and even an IATA airport code. And yes, I know the popular excuse is that it's British slang for a cigarette, but the word has no relevant use in today's age. Hiding behind that as justification when the word is used is straight up ignorant and our community, as a whole, is better than that. It's a derogatory slur, and has no useful purpose whatsoever in today's world.

Funny that you mention that as I used to work with this gay guy. Super good guy who was a smoker and he would always say with a smile; "I'm going out for a quick fag." I don't want to get in a debate over the word but I always thought that was funny.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by ae118

Thanks, FlamesAddiction - for pointing out wider issues of gender discrimination. The fact that these issues also certainly factor into the discussion doesn't mean that calling the Sedins "sisters" is okay, however.

I'm sorry for any offense with the quote. It was the quickest and simplest way I could think of to illustrate the point (although apparently that didn't work...). It wasn't meant to say that only this particular situation exists.

Heh, no problem. When I say "take offense", I mean it in the lightest way possible. I am not fuming over it or holding it against you or anyone. Maybe "take exception" would have been a better way to say it.

And I definitely don't want to give the impression that any level of sexism should be tolerated against women just because men face some of the same issues. If anything, I wish that more men would push back against it like women do.

[Daradon]

Wow, can you guys stop focusing on EG's avatar? You're just coming off as petty.

And I don't think it's hypocritical as a lot of other 'sexy' avatars are still up. The thread might be gone, but the avatars aren't. If they came down too than maybe you'd have a point (if only literally, you'd still be missing the point in spirit).

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Eastern girl and peanut please change your avatars now. They are offensive to many posters