[Signing] Flames Sign Devin Setoguchi to one year 750k deal.

[driveway]

Baertschi is going to be traded to the Jets in a deal for Evander Kane. And there will be much rejoicing.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by driveway

Baertschi is going to be traded to the Jets in a deal for Evander Kane. And there will be much rejoicing.

Yes, for Jets fans. Kane is a headcase.

[Vulcan]

Okay. How often does this happen? Can you provide some specific examples where such relationships have been ruined and have also detrimentally affected a team? What actually took place in such instances before the relationship was severed? Have any players' ability or potential to play in the NHL been clearly negatively affected by an unwillingness on the part of their parent club to add them to the NHL roster?

Kyle Turris' career looks something like Baertschi's.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8474068

The standoff between Kyle Turris and the Phoenix Coyotes was taken up a notch Thursday.
Kurt Overhardt, the agent for the unsigned center, confirmed that Turris has asked the Coyotes for a trade.
"This has never been about money, we've been upfront with the club from Day 1," Overhardt told ESPN.com Thursday. "We've respectfully requested that the player had the opportunity to move forward in his career by having a fresh start."

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/71...-coyotes-trade

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Kyle Turris' career looks something like Baertschi's.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8474068



http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/71...-coyotes-trade

The same Turris who played a full season in the NHL as a 19 year old? If anything he's an argument to keep the players in the AHL to develop.

And considering he was holding out after playing another full season with the Coyotes, not sure what this has to do with keeping players in the AHL. They can say it wasn't about the money, but it wasn't about playing in the AHL...

[Vulcan]

As for the two extremes of developing players between the Oilers and the Red Wings. We aren't asking a rookie to take over first line duty like up north and we aren't a perpetual contender like in Detroit either. We're in a rebuild so it's a different philosophy from Detroit. To me part of a rebuild is giving our young players a shot.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

The same Turris who played a full season in the NHL as a 19 year old? If anything he's an argument to keep the players in the AHL to develop.

And considering he was holding out after playing another full season with the Coyotes, not sure what this has to do with keeping players in the AHL. They can say it wasn't about the money, but it wasn't about playing in the AHL...

you missed the argument, this wasn't about whether he should have remained in the AHL it's about the relationship being ruined by his lack of opportunity.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

As for the two extremes of developing players between the Oilers and the Red Wings. We aren't asking a rookie to take over first line duty like up north and we aren't a perpetual contender like in Detroit either. We're in a rebuild so it's a different philosophy from Detroit. To me part of a rebuild is giving our young players a shot.

I'm guessing that's where the disagreement is though. The young players still have a shot IMO

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

you missed the argument, this wasn't about whether he should have remained in the AHL it's about the relationship being ruined by his lack of opportunity.

He played two full seasons with the Coyotes before he turned 22-years old. What opportunity did the the team withhold? I would agree with the last poster that Turris is a much better example of a player who could have used the extra development time in order to meet his potential, and certainly never looked like one who was stagnating for want of opportunities.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

It depends. If the rookie has outgrown the AHL there isn't much sense in him spending more time there. He may not be as effective as Setoguchi early on but if he gets to play, by the end of the season he could be a lot better.

Originally Posted by MarkGio

They're going to develop career AHLers with their prospects of they don't allow. them to adapt to the NHL.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Has this ever happened before? I'm honestly curious, and this also goes back to an earlier comment by Vulcan conveying concerns that a prospect might "outgrow" the AHL. Are there any players in NHL history whose careers have clearly suffered and stagnated as a result of spending too much time playing in the A?

Originally Posted by gargamel

What we can say with 100% certainty is that relationships between players and teams have been ruined when teams have been unwilling or unable to find room on their NHL rosters for those prospects.

Originally Posted by Vulcan

you missed the argument, this wasn't about whether he should have remained in the AHL it's about the relationship being ruined by his lack of opportunity.

The argument, first mentioned by you, was about players outgrowing the AHL. It then somewhat got turned into a discussion of players not getting opportunity to play in the NHL.

Somehow you came up with Turris. A player that nearly everyone agrees was rushed into the NHL and a full-time NHL player when he requested a trade, completely contradictory to any argument here.

Ironically, you came back with talking about giving players some opportunity to play in the NHL but not be first line players. A fair argument, but exactly the situation Turris was in that concluded with him requesting a trade (assuming it wasn't actually a money issue). Turris had already established himself as an NHL player when he heldout. There was 0 question he would be in Phoenix if he signed. The Turris situation had no more bearings about outgrowing the AHL than something like the Erixon situation or Heatley asking out of Ottawa.

Again, the discussion was about players outgrowing the AHL and having their development stagnated because of it. I can't think of any obvious examples and Turris is 100% not an example of it.

[Point Blank]

Always appreciate Textcritics thoughtful posts that explain exactly what I'm thinking thoroughly but am too lazy to write out

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

The argument, first mentioned by you, was about players outgrowing the AHL. It then somewhat got turned into a discussion of players not getting opportunity to play in the NHL.

Somehow you came up with Turris. A player that nearly everyone agrees was rushed into the NHL and a full-time NHL player when he requested a trade, completely contradictory to any argument here.

Ironically, you came back with talking about giving players some opportunity to play in the NHL but not be first line players. A fair argument, but exactly the situation Turris was in that concluded with him requesting a trade (assuming it wasn't actually a money issue). Turris had already established himself as an NHL player when he heldout. There was 0 question he would be in Phoenix if he signed. The Turris situation had no more bearings about outgrowing the AHL than something like the Erixon situation or Heatley asking out of Ottawa.

Again, the discussion was about players outgrowing the AHL and having their development stagnated because of it. I can't think of any obvious examples and Turris is 100% not an example of it.

It changed because there is no way to prove if a player got ruined by spending too much time in a lower league. One thing that can be agreed upon I think is that a player needs to be tested and can outgrow a league. whether the AHL or any other league.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

He played two full seasons with the Coyotes before he turned 22-years old. What opportunity did the the team withhold? I would agree with the last poster that Turris is a much better example of a player who could have used the extra development time in order to meet his potential, and certainly never looked like one who was stagnating for want of opportunities.

You asked the question, has a relationship ever been ruined. I gave you an example.

[foshizzle11]

It is amazing how so many threads get derailed because people need to talk about Sven. Like everything that happens affects him and his chances to make the team.

It is simple, he has to earn it, if he truly tries hard and shows what he is being asked he will be fine.

Seto doesn't affect him, only Sven affects Sven.

[badger89]

Originally Posted by gunnner

I watched him for 3 years with the blades, and watched a dozen Jets games last year. Unless there is a miracle, he will not be a in Hartleys good books. He does not play hard. I expect a lot of pressbox time for Setoguchi. To say he will be an asset we can trade at the deadline is wishful thinking.

Yup. This is just a repeat of the Galliardi signing.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Fun fact, unless I'm stupid, Setoguchi now has the most career goals out of all the active Flames:

Setoguchi - 127
Stajan - 123
Glencross - 121
Hudler - 114
Raymond - 99

[foshizzle11]

Ya, seems like a move to give our youngsters more time in the AHL. We don't have really any top 6 RW prospects who are ready to play in the NHL. This is a good move for 1 year and a cap hit. We still have loads of cap space so I don't see this as a negative. If the kids play better than him, he will sit in the press box like gunner mentioned above.

[868904]

Flames just picked up an extra 2nd/3rd (depending how well he plays) round pick in next years draft.

Good asset management.

[badger89]

I was hoping that either Gaudreau, Baertchi or Granlund lights it up and makes the team out of camp, but with the off season signings I don't see that happening, even if they play totally lights out. They'll all start in the AHL and will have to earn their call-up. Disappointing as a fan, but it may indeed be better for their development.

Where I think Trevling has gone wrong is not leaving room for one of Reinhardt, Knight, Wolf or Arnold, all of who could be ready to take the next step.

[442scotty]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

The Flames are embarking on a Sutter-like rebuild, allowing for no competition in training camp. There's 13 forwards penciled in:

Hudler - Stajan - Jones
Glencross - Backlund - Colborne
Raymond - Monahan - Setoguchi
Bollig - Bouma - Byron
McGrattan

No room Baertschi, Gaudreau, Bennett, Poirer, Klimchuck or Granlund. Why? Because Trevy and Burke thought wash-ups like Setoguchi have shown experience in the NHL and therefore must be better hockey players. They're going to develop career AHLers with their prospects of they don't allow. them to adapt to the NHL.

And lets not forget a boat load of other guys they picked up in the last 6 months. Im not sure about the career AHL part but Im hoping that by Xmas 3 or 4 guys will be either traded or dropped to make room for up and comers.

Jones? GONE right from camp Please!... Hudler? probably traded for picks... Stajan? I like him but Im betting he goes back home for personal reasons Seto? will have to shine pretty bright to stick. Bouma? Easily replaced. Byron? Another guy who will have to step it up even more.

[Split98]

The ONLY time prospects will unfairly be left in the AHL is when the big club has a glut of good players they can't justify moving for a prospect to take a spot. This just happened with Hayes in Chicago.

By my count, players who could easily ride pine without batting an eye: Jones, Seto, Bollig and Raymond. That's four spots on the NHL roster primed for a prospect to steal a spot before there's even an injury. I like all 4 players (yes, even Jones) on that list, but they have not solidified a spot on the Flames themselves.

I would much rather have one of our prospects boot a NHL vet from their spot than us shove a prospect into the lineup to flush out the roster. Monahan is the only 'prospect' that has solidified his spot on the roster... so I would be upset if we just brought in a reclamation centre that would push Monahan to earn his spot again. But, we didn't. We signed a talented winger to fill a roster spot on our weakest wing. Nothing but win here.