Is Edmonton intentionally tanking?

[macrov]

Originally Posted by gradin-23

Good one.

Neither are franchise centres.

Disagree. IMO the following are franchise centers

Bergeron, Crosby, toews, staal, backstom, kopitar, sedin, toews, Malkin, Datsyuk, Duchane, Giroux, Getzlaf, stamkos, Thornton, Kessel, Tavares, Seguin,

That's 18 centres on 17 teams. How many of those teams make the playoffs?

[gradin-23]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Kopitar > Kesler

Certainly.

Not a franchise centre though. Kinda like Brad Richards isn't either.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by gradin-23

Certainly.

Not a franchise centre though. Kinda like Brad Richards isn't either.

Of course he is a franchise center. 517 points in 575 games points to that.
And then you add to that he is defensively responsible and plays big then he is 100% a slam dunk franchise center.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by macrov

Disagree. IMO the following are franchise centers

Bergeron, Crosby, toews, staal, backstom, kopitar, sedin, toews, Malkin, Datsyuk, Duchane, Giroux, Getzlaf, stamkos, Thornton, Kessel, Tavares, Seguin,

That's 18 centres on 17 teams. How many of those teams make the playoffs?

Kessel isn't a center and he isn't a franchise anything IMO. Good list though and agree with almost all of them.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by gradin-23

If the Oil went 28-0 to end the year they'd likely miss the playoffs. Feel free to check my math.

Almost right.

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/NHL/W.../Edmonton.html

whereas the Flames

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/NHL/W...c/Calgary.html

In the good old days this site was relevant.

[macrov]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Kessel isn't a center and he isn't a franchise anything IMO. Good list though and agree with almost all of them.

He's listed as a center on my NHL 2006 ps3 game. You're obviously mistaken

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Almost right.

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/NHL/W.../Edmonton.html

He did say it was "likely" they'd miss the playoffs. It would pretty much be a miracle if they made it now.

[gradin-23]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Of course he is a franchise center. 517 points in 575 games points to that.
And then you add to that he is defensively responsible and plays big then he is 100% a slam dunk franchise center.

I guess we've lost something in the definition.

Some think Krejci is. Some think Bergeron is. Some think some other guy is.

[trackercowe]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Kessel isn't a center and he isn't a franchise anything IMO. Good list though and agree with almost all of them.

In his defense Kessel is listed as a center on nhl.com, but yeah he's obviously not really a center, nor is he really a franchise player.

I would probably add Pavelski, Backes, and perhaps Krejci (mostly in the playoffs) to that list. Fringe franchise centers I suppose, but better then a few players on that list.

[gradin-23]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Almost right.

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/NHL/W.../Edmonton.html

whereas the Flames

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/NHL/W...c/Calgary.html

In the good old days this site was relevant.

It would certainly depend on if those 28 wins were in regulation. If they were giving up points to other 6/7/8 seeds, 94 points isn't a guarantee of a spot.

They'd need Min, Pho, Dal and Wpg to all be close or under .500. Those stats pages, as pretty as they are, really aren't the end all just because they have paid their domain name fees.

[dying4acup]

There are exceptions, but I would try to quantify a franchise center, in the current era, as one who has been a #1 center for a cup winner, and averaged aboved 1ppg, while close to ppg for career over 400gp.

Not everybody will agree.

Other factors come into play, like top level international competition, but that's where I stand.

Kopitar is a franchise. I don't even think he has peaked yet. Keep in mind that he is playing in a suffocating offensive system and still putting up numbers.

And btw, Thornton isn't a franchise center in my books.

[macrov]

Originally Posted by dying4acup

There are exceptions, but I would try to quantify a franchise center, in the current era, as one who has been a #1 center for a cup winner, and averaged aboved 1ppg, while close to ppg for career over 400gp.

Not everybody will agree.

Other factors come into play, like top level international competition, but that's where I stand.

Kopitar is a franchise. I don't even think he has peaked yet. Keep in mind that he is playing in a suffocating offensive system and still putting up numbers.

And btw, Thornton isn't a franchise center in my books.

No not Shawn thorton. I mean Joe Thornton. :P

The one that's been a ppg for 1100 games in the regular season and .8 ppg in the playoffs.

And made the playoffs 11 of the past 12 seasons. And made 2 conference finals appearances...all as the number one center on his team.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by gradin-23

I guess we've lost something in the definition...

So, what is your definition, then?

I would argue that there is a difference between a "top line" centre and a "franchise" centre. Most teams have the former. The Flames, Predators, Blue Jackets, Devils, Panthers, and Jets do not. Although Monahan, Barkov, and Scheifele are all good bets to become "top line" centres. That is, centres that do everything very well, but are hampered by a minor flaw in their game (usually either a lack of size or foot-speed that keeps them out of the "franchise" conversation). All three could also become "franchise" centres. Nugent-Hopkins is a "top-line" centre who will never be a "franchise" centre because of his size and strength, which seem to consistently hold him back. Duchene is not a big player, but his exceptional vision, skating, and hockey smarts compensate for his smaller stature. Joe Thornton is slow, but might be the best puck distributer of the last two decades. Toews' hockey IQ, strength, and tenacity qualify him as a franchise centre, despite the fact that he is consistently under a point/game every season. Kessel was drafted as a centre, but his team seems better suited to the wing, which keeps him out of the franchise conversation.

"Franchise" centres are exceptional in almost every area, or have off-the-charts skills in one area that help to compensate for other "weaknesses"—hence, the examples of Thornton, Duchene, and Toews. I would argue that Kopitar is a franchise centre. He does everything very well, but his size and strength thrust him into this category. It is more of an impressionistic category, and one that is difficult to quantify.

I think Monahan could become a "franchise" centre without ever hitting the point/game mark, much like Toews or Bergeron (although, I don't consider Bergeron a franchise centre).

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by gradin-23

Not a franchise centre though.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by dying4acup

There are exceptions, but I would try to quantify a franchise center, in the current era, as one who has been a #1 center for a cup winner, and averaged aboved 1ppg, while close to ppg for career over 400gp...

This is an odd set of criteria. Jonathan Toews would be disqualified, owing to the fact that despite his two Cup championships, is consistently below a point/game every season. Henrik Sedin would also be disqualified, despite his four consecutive point/game seasons, and his #6 placement among active players in all-time career assists.

Originally Posted by dying4acup

Kopitar is a franchise. I don't even think he has peaked yet. Keep in mind that he is playing in a suffocating offensive system and still putting up numbers.

Kopitar doesn't meet your +point/game criterion while playing for a cup winner. It is strange to see the exception made for him and Toews, while you disqualify Thornton (which is hilarious), and likely also Sedin, Tavares, Backstrom, Stamkos for not having won a championship. Sometimes, no matter how good a player is, their circumstances will dictate more than their skills the course of their careers.

Originally Posted by dying4acup

And btw, Thornton isn't a franchise center in my books.

...which really is laughable.

[trackercowe]

Only five active players in the NHL average above a point-per game (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Jagr, and Selanne), so asking for a player to score over a PPG is really asking a lot. Thornton is just outside that metric (only fell below it last week), and actually Spezza is sixth on that list. So obviously that really doesn't work in defining who "franchise" centers are. All-time greats more like it. Funny how Spezza is no longer even the best center on his team even though he just turned 30.

[vilzeh]

I'd say Mikko Koivu is a franchise center, but that's just me.

[trackercowe]

Originally Posted by vilzeh

I'd say Mikko Koivu is a franchise center, but that's just me.

Debatable for sure, he just has never had the chance to play in a system where he has the opportunity to put up a ton of points. Koivu could apply to the Bergeron exception, but he hasn't won enough to be at that level. Parise would be called a franchise center before him, but he hasn't worked all that well in Minnesota.

Is he better than Saku ever was though?

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Where is Andrew Cogliano on that list? I was assured quite some time ago that he would be a franchise centreman.

[macrov]

Originally Posted by BACKCHECK!!!

Where is Andrew Cogliano on that list? I was assured quite some time ago that he would be a franchise centreman.

Have more patience.