[PGT] Flames Fall 6-0 in Phx

[moon]

Originally Posted by jonesy

I believe that you have taken what I was merely speculating and attached many other things to it. The 'conspiracy' and 'feaster forced' comments had thing zero to do with the thought.

The Feaster comments were meant as an agreement with you that is was likely harsh by me and meant to point out exactly what you are saying here that I probably took some things that weren't relevant and directed them at my response.

I also wonder how many people that dismiss the idea that players can play worse after a GM change or GM comment contradict themselves by saying that a player can play much better after being snubbed at Olympics (Hudler/St. Louis)
I believe that both are possible, because the mind is a funny blob of protoplasm that is very complex.

I am not one of those but can see that a GM change could affect individual players. I just think that is a pretty small reason for the poor play recently and likely has very little to do with the on ice product.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by jonesy

I believe that you have taken what I was merely speculating and attached many other things to it. The 'conspiracy' and 'feaster forced' comments had thing zero to do with the thought.

I also wonder how many people that dismiss the idea that players can play worse after a GM change or GM comment contradict themselves by saying that a player can play much better after being snubbed at Olympics (Hudler/St. Louis)
I believe that both are possible, because the mind is a funny blob of protoplasm that is very complex.

Its possible, but in the long run irrelevant for the Flames. How many players who've been playing lately will be on the team will be here when we are good again. My guess - maybe one of the goalies, Brodie, Giordano, Monohan, Colborne and Bouma. The rest of them can sulk because Burke was mean or because they think are getting traded... really unless they hurt their trade value in the next month, it doesn't matter.

[CSharp]

Why the do Flames keep trying to play these dang defensive games. Any coach who preaches a young non-playoff contender to play defensive hockey should be fired. Let them play pond hockey and get everyone's confidence up. Who cares about being outscored even if the score can be like 20-5 for the opposing team. At least in a losing cause, you know the players can score some goals. But you keep playing these tight defensive games and not score anything at all for the past 10 games, there's really something wrong. Just frickin jam everyone in front of the opposition goal and see if someone can score, dammit! Who cares if there's gonna be a breakaway going the other way! Where's Anton Babchuck? I don't care if his defensive game suck. Flames need someone to pound that damn puck into an opposition blocker and pound the puck through the net. Flames defense suck anyway, especially with Smid in the lineup.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by saillias

I sure hope you never have a position of authority over others in a working environment, or the place would likely become toxic quickly.

I own a company and run it, people actually really like me because I understand how to motivate them based on my negative experiences demonstrating how many people respond adversely to punishment and condemnation. I've just been on the losing end of working 70 hours a week for a dbag and still worked hard without complaining. I put food on the table of 5 different people and even gave them all Christmas bonuses so yeah... you are off base. Anywho, back to hockey.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah I think it has to do with the Feaster firing and the team approaching the deadline.

With Feaster around I think some of the vets thought they could potential stay in Calgary, there was even talk in the media that guys like Stajan/Stempniak could be kept around.

However once that shoe dropped I think all the vets realized that the clock was ticking and that they were likely not coming back with Burke at the helm. It is hard to lay it all on the line and give 110% for your coach when you know it is a matter of time before you are getting shipped out.

The guys that have struggled the most over the last month are the "trade deadline" guys with Stempniak, Stajan, and Cammy no longer feeling comfortable and knowing that they will be traded soon.

I have a feeling that this is a big part of their crappy play of late.

With Cammalleri, Feaster basically said that if Cammy wanted to remain a Flame, he would remain a Flame. Listening to his recent interviews, it's obvious that Burke hasn't offered him any similar assurances, yet.

I think it's similar to what we saw over the last few years with Iginla. Every time a rumor would start circulating that he was on the trade block, his play would drop off. Then, King or Feaster would declare that the Flames were not going to trade Iginla, and he'd start playing better.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by getbak

I have a feeling that this is a big part of their crappy play of late.

With Cammalleri, Feaster basically said that if Cammy wanted to remain a Flame, he would remain a Flame. Listening to his recent interviews, it's obvious that Burke hasn't offered him any similar assurances, yet.

I think it's similar to what we saw over the last few years with Iginla. Every time a rumor would start circulating that he was on the trade block, his play would drop off. Then, King or Feaster would declare that the Flames were not going to trade Iginla, and he'd start playing better.

I don't recall Feaster ever saying that.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

So this is kind of funny. The Coyotes Flames match is so boring and ultimately awful that the conversation turns to the Sabres and Isles (and not even dignifying the Oil)

I had a feeling that tonight's game would be rough. For one, the Coyotes are a team coached in a way that will prey on weakness but never ultimately and truly succeed. Sad because this is the crap that frustrates the Flames and results in a terrible beating where they go out with a whimper

Secondly, after the win over the Avs, Cammalleri's post game interview was among the worst I have seen. He spent more time looking down the hall and at his feet than at the camera. When Millions suggested that perhaps the offensive breakout was a positive development, he pretty much said 'hopefully' with defeatist attitude rather than exhibiting his gregariousness. I have never seen a guy with such a loser face after scoring a game winner. Ironic after his comments that left Montreal forced to dispatch him. Some leader.

I say, the team after Burke turfed Feaster is a bunch of guys that feel they were given up on and are now looking over their shoulders. Feaster's track record here aside, he was developing a certain atmosphere that acknowledged the rebuild and gave comfort, but Burke undermined everyone's confidence whether he expected to or not.

Start with a small roster you need to ask to overachieve. Tell a team (and their fans) they are too small and then all of the 5'6"-5'11", <190 pound guys who were empowered have been snipped.

4 shutouts in 6 games? Pretty darn close to rock bottom here. Amazing how much worse a team that is already bad on paper can be when they are demoralized.

Cammi is putting in a professional enough effort but if he is not flu ridden he is checked out and needs to go. We are right at the point we were last year where Iggy was going to go and the players are waiting for the next shoe to drop.

Can I just say?… Extremely well said sir. This is everything I've been thinking of late but didn't have the patience to type it out. Thanks.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by FBI

I have as much patience as anyone with regards to the flames and i expect losses, however I would like to be entertained. If we are going to get shutout every game I would rather get shutout with baertschi granlund and knight giving some effort over the useless vets.

Last place hockey isn't entertaining no matter who is on the ice for your team.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by moon

They were bottom 5 in the league before the firing and bottom 5 now. Not sure how that is playing above expectations since that is what most people thought they would be. Also, the stats have shown they are basically playing right around the same level pre and post firing so the whole premise is pretty much flawed.

I think the playing resilient and with heart was a bit of fans seeing what they want. I can't remember the stats but in the St. Louis game they said the Flames were something like 2-12 when trailing going into the 3rd. Not very resilient.

To say that an innocent comment is the driving factor in their play when skill, injuries, bumps and bruises, a larger sample size, long season etc. are all much more likely and logical explanations is a big leap. Especially when as mentioned not much has changed in terms of the teams play at all.

I've already acknowledged no significant statistical difference between the pre and post Feaster era. I am merely pointing out that there appears to be a behavioural or cultural difference in the team since the Feaster firing. This could be attributing to them losing by a siginificant margin on a more frequent basis rather than just simply losing.

Burke's comment, in itself, means nothing in my opinion, but does signify he will be changing the team. Resiliency is actually a media descriptor for the team earlier on, and they did seem more enthusiastic then - they were losing, but not getting "spanked" nearly as often. All of your listed factor's are, of course, factor's. And big ones. But managerial change in any industry can and will affect team performance. And when managerial change comes with an inevitibility of personnel change, performance will suffer. For a bit, until the anticipated changes take place. The possibility of this happening right now and contributing to a step down in performance is not a leap of faith.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I don't recall Feaster ever saying that.

I don't remember the exact words he used, but shortly before he was fired, he talked about the plans for the new year and what to do with the pending UFAs.

He said something along the lines of Cammalleri being a good leader in the room. Then he said something like they would meet with Cammy, and if he was interested in staying, they'd try to work out a deal that worked for both sides, and if he wanted to move on, they'd work on finding a trade.

From what I remember, he basically implied that Cammalleri and Stempniak were the only UFA forwards they might have interest in extending.


He didn't say it in so many words, but that was the implication I got from what he said. Of course, I may have misinterpreted him too. Not that it matters any more, either way.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by CSharp

Why the do Flames keep trying to play these dang defensive games. Any coach who preaches a young non-playoff contender to play defensive hockey should be fired. Let them play pond hockey and get everyone's confidence up. Who cares about being outscored even if the score can be like 20-5 for the opposing team. At least in a losing cause, you know the players can score some goals. But you keep playing these tight defensive games and not score anything at all for the past 10 games, there's really something wrong. Just frickin jam everyone in front of the opposition goal and see if someone can score, dammit! Who cares if there's gonna be a breakaway going the other way! Where's Anton Babchuck? I don't care if his defensive game suck. Flames need someone to pound that damn puck into an opposition blocker and pound the puck through the net. Flames defense suck anyway, especially with Smid in the lineup.

Yeah, let's teach all our young (hopefully corner stone) building blocks that D doesn't matter. That'll build a championship franchise.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by CSharp

Why the do Flames keep trying to play these dang defensive games. Any coach who preaches a young non-playoff contender to play defensive hockey should be fired. Let them play pond hockey and get everyone's confidence up. Who cares about being outscored even if the score can be like 20-5 for the opposing team. At least in a losing cause, you know the players can score some goals. But you keep playing these tight defensive games and not score anything at all for the past 10 games, there's really something wrong. Just frickin jam everyone in front of the opposition goal and see if someone can score, dammit! Who cares if there's gonna be a breakaway going the other way! Where's Anton Babchuck? I don't care if his defensive game suck. Flames need someone to pound that damn puck into an opposition blocker and pound the puck through the net. Flames defense suck anyway, especially with Smid in the lineup.

It is about teaching fundamentals. You could let them go out and run and gun and see where that gets you (look a couple hours north for exhibit A). Clearly this method, as proven by the Oilers, is not how you rebuild a team. In fact, it is how you completely destroy prospects.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Berra has poor rebound controlling... Only a couple of goals did he have no chance on, but the other ones were seriously his fault. He's always out of position.

I feel way more comfortable with Ramo in net.

The first two goals were the result of flukes (Doan's elbow and the shot off the back of the Yotes leg that left an empty net) that he had no chance on. The pass from behind out to the hash marks for a quick one timer is something where you hope to block it but that is the kind of thing the D need to try to prohibit. For the two goals where the guy is right in front of him, no goalie has the opportunity to really demonstrate rebound control. A bullet with a screen as well. None of this was really due to poor play by Berra.

Now Ramo let two goals of his three in from guys coming from behind the goal line, right side, and him having a problem with the gap between his pads.

Ramo would have fared no better against Phx