[News] Flames scratch Sven...again

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

You don't know what you are talking about.

You are correct but you are also arguing with a person that isn't rational with this topic. I gave up last week.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I'll address the Atlanta ones.

Both Heatley and Kovalchuk had 1.5 seasons full seasons in the NHL before Hartley came along, they were both well established NHLers by that point. Heatley had over 100 points by then and Kovalchuk wasn't far behind. Kovalchuk had his best season in the NHL with Hartley as his coach, that should probably count for something.

Patrik Stefan? Seriously? The guy was out of the NHL before Hartley was fired in Atlanta. I don't even know how you could even consider him a player who Hartley developed or had much of a postive influence on.

Lehtonen? Not too sure how much coaching he is giving the goalie. But ok.

Coburn was probably one of his biggest mistakes as a head coach. He blossemed into a solid player after he left Atlanta. He was a frequent healthy scratch during his final season in Atlanta.

Heatley and Kovalchuk were still only 22 and 21 years old respectively, or the same age as Sven now. The coach still has a big role in developing those players at that age, regardless of how much success they may have had already.

Stefan I included as a failure, not every coach is going to have a 100% track record.

I actually just removed Coburn from my list. Coburn only played 29 games under Bob Hartley, not sure you can really count that as a success or a failure.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You are correct but you are also arguing with a person that isn't rational with this topic. I gave up last week.

Understood. I'm not going to argue, and that's easy because honestly, there is nothing to argue about. Making any sorts of long-term assessments of a player who has not yet played in 40 games, and who just turned 21-years-old is ridiculous. It's practically axiomatic.

[CaptainCrunch]

I hardly think that benching a 21 year old player that even if you asked him would admit that he wasn't playing well at all. While he has the puck he's doing some nice things, but the rest of his game has suffered this year and it goes back to the pentictin tournament.

The Flames are trying to get players to work hard all over the ice in every situation, its the culture that they want going forward. I don't know if Sven is working hard or not, but I don't think he's working smart at all.

Putting a young player in the press box when they're struggling can be a good thing, they can see the game from a slower perspective, and they can understand from coaches messages that what they're doing simply isn't good enough..

Its up to Sven at some point to bring his game up, we've seen him do it, and its not something that we can wait for the final third of the season when games don't count for it to happen. He has to start producing and being a factor all over the ice.

Again I'm not trying to slag the kid, its way too early in his career to do that. But we've seen what happens to young players when the three zone big effort thing isn't followed through with the stick at times, its called the Oilers young core.

I'm on side with Hartley here, was Burke's message unduly harsh? Maybe, but that's what happens when your a top ranked prospect.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I actually just removed Coburn from my list. Coburn only played 29 games under Bob Hartley, not sure you can really count that as a success or a failure.

38 games, he played 9 the season prior after playing in the AHL most of the season.

Either way the organization did not have the highest opinion of Coburn before the trade. Just an awful deal all around that they made.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Hartley coached a 28 year old Savard for all of one season. He did not develop Savard.

Again, Savard had natural talent (top 2 playermaker in the league - this cannot be coached) that was being held back in Calgary due to politics (conflict with the coach).

Baertschi may become a great player like Savard, but if Hartley keeps it up, it won't be with the Flames. I want Baertschi to be a great player for the Calgary Flames, not the Buffalo Sabres of Boston Bruins.

He certainly broke out - what's the difference

It's just amusing to me because your general argument here seems to be that Hartley is bad for developing young players, ruins them, and then you bring up Marc Savard for some reason, who became a superstar with Hartley as his coach. Just not sure what your angle is.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You are correct but you are also arguing with a person that isn't rational with this topic. I gave up last week.

What makes you say that?

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Baertschi is the lifeblood. Baertschi is life.

[Gary83]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I'm not suggesting that they have ruined him, but yes, they are ruining him.

Princess Drama strikes again.

[FlamesAddiction]

You would think that this was the first time in history that a coach scratched a prospect in the NHL, from the way some people talk. It's actually a pretty common situation, even for 1st round picks.

[Dentoman]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Understood. I'm not going to argue, and that's easy because honestly, there is nothing to argue about. Making any sorts of long-term assessments of a player who has not yet played in 40 games, and who just turned 21-years-old is ridiculous. It's practically axiomatic.

I am going to agree with you .... even though I don't know what that last statement means

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Understood. I'm not going to argue, and that's easy because honestly, there is nothing to argue about. Making any sorts of long-term assessments of a player who has not yet played in 40 games, and who just turned 21-years-old is ridiculous. It's practically axiomatic.

Yep. I admit that I've never been as bullish on Sven as some fans here have but I think he can be a top 6 NHL forward. I believe the Oilers approach of letting the kids play with no accountability is why their top players have had their growth stunted so I'm okay with Sven being held accountable.

However I do have a little gripe which is less about Sven and more about how Hartley seems to have tiered expectations for certain players like Baertschi, Horak, Smith, Backlund, Jones, etc. Horak under Brent in his first season played 61 games and didn't look out of place most nights. In two seasons under Hartley he can't even get in the lineup. Meanwhile guys like Galiardi who IMO has been just going through the motions never lose their role and Jackman to me is no longer a full time NHL player. Heck even Jones has been ho hum. Just seems to me that some players seem to escape his wrath while others can do no right. Maybe I am reading too much into this but I don't want to waste these rebuilding years with no accountability for players that aren't part of the long term plans. I would like to see some of these other guys take their turn in the pressbox for poor play like Galiardi last night with that poor giveaway and poor overall play.

[Phanuthier]

From the 12 pages I read of this thread, but only thing I got from this was that people really like to use the word "pout" and will use it as much as possible to sound dramatic.

[Flash Walken]

I wouldn't care so much about the benching if I thought that they were giving Baertschi a fair shot with minutes, matchups and situations when he wasn't scratched, but I don't think they are. I agree with a lot of other posters that say it's not a huge deal, but, I still don't think that means he's getting a fair shake.

He's done something to be in the bad books. Whether it's justified or not is a different story.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

What makes you say that?

Clearly I wasn't being facetious with this statement at all. Nope.

I didn't post in this thread until people started talking about how Baertschi had a bad attitude.

[CaptainYooh]

I understand why people are trying to make parallels between Sven and Savard. We all had huge expectations and hopes for him. Similar analogies and arguments could also be made between Sven and other smaller-size highly skilled players like St.Lois and P.Kane. But the fact remains, while Baertschi is skilled, he is not as skilled as those guys. I've seen Sven closely without his gear; he still looks like a kid and he will be pushed around and ineffective in NHL unless he either elevates his skill level significantly to make it difficult for other players to push him around and defend against him despite his size or, if this is his maximum skill level, improves his overall on-ice work ethic and becomes an average contributing third-line player, which is exactly what Burke and Hartley want from him, I think.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Gary83

Princess Drama strikes again.

These personal attack posts really contribute to discussion. Thanks.

Sorry that we disagree.

[J epworth]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

I understand why people are trying to make parallels between Sven and Savard. We all had huge expectations and hopes for him. Similar analogies and arguments could also be made between Sven and other smaller-size highly skilled players like St.Lois and P.Kane. But the fact remains, while Baertschi is skilled, he is not as skilled as those guys. I've seen Sven closely without his gear; he still looks like a kid and he will be pushed around and ineffective in NHL unless he either elevates his skill level significantly to make it difficult for other players to push him around and defend against him despite his size or, if this is his maximum skill level, improves his overall on-ice work ethic and becomes an average contributing third-line player, which is exactly what Burke and Hartley want from him, I think.

I don't understand the parallels at all. Savard never had trouble scoring points with the Flames, never was shy on the puck or taking shots for that matter. His issue was always work ethic and the fact he never went past centre ice his entire career. Baertschi's issues right now is about the opposite. He's trying, he's improving in the defensive zone, but he's gripping his stick too tight and shying away from potential scoring chances. It's like the exact opposite problem that we had with Savard.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I wouldn't care so much about the benching if I thought that they were giving Baertschi a fair shot with minutes, matchups and situations when he wasn't scratched, but I don't think they are. I agree with a lot of other posters that say it's not a huge deal, but, I still don't think that means he's getting a fair shake.

He's done something to be in the bad books. Whether it's justified or not is a different story.

This is pretty much where I am.

[nik-]

Making the leap to Sven has a bad attitude - kosher

Making the leap to Sven being ruined - monster

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

You would think that this was the first time in history that a coach scratched a prospect in the NHL, from the way some people talk. It's actually a pretty common situation, even for 1st round picks.

Like EE said there are a couple of completely irrational Sven groupies in here so history and truth don't matter...Sven is basically ruined right now we just have to learn to deal with it.