Is Bob Hartley the right coach for this team?

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Poe969

Older coach likes "old style" hockey. Hartley likes those hard workers that will do what it takes to get the job done, even though they dont' have the skill and they take some nights off because they gave it their all the previous game, he likes them.

He likes his vets. Plain and simple. He isn't built to coach in today's NHL, things have changed and he either needs to change with them (which he clearly hasn't) or move on.

People say this a lot, maybe it came from a random talking head on TSN or something, but I don't really see how it's true. At least not entirely.

On every team he coached he always had youth on the team, and would play them accordingly. People like to harp about how he likes his vets and never plays the kids, but Money is rocking 20 minute games, and Bouma is playing, and Breen is playing. It's not like he is forsaking all rookies for veteran talent.

Obviously Sven being a scratch is going to rub people the wrong way, it did for me too, but how long does he have to play rookies before people drop the whole "doesn't play his rookies" card? He works on a system of meritocracy, if you earn it, you get it. As much as we like to point to that and say "well Sven earned it so he should play", we should all be willing to admit that despite his struggles thus far, a guy like Glencross has earned a longer rope than a guy like Sven.

But the whole "vets over rookies" thing? Just stop already. It's just not true.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

It was an atrocious decision to bench Baertschi and it didn't make a lot of sense. Now to be fair I didn't see the Phoenix game, and another poster indicated that game was weak for Baertschi and indeed even his comments indicate that he himself knew it wasn't great.

That said, Glencross is getting away with murder and it's strictly because of age. Stajan should have come in and replaced Glencross. He hasn't even earned the right to play in the NHL this season let alone first line minutes and if Baertschi has had 1 bad game well Glencross has had 8-9!

And the problem is that when it is not clear what's going on, based on the on ice performance at least, you're not even sending a message because nobody understands what the coach is even asking. Be like Gallagher? He isn't that type of player. How about do the things that got you to the NHL level. He hasn't really been that irresponsible defensively, has he? Not like Butler, another easy scratch candidate.

This whole 'meritocracy' clearly doesn't exist. Otherwise a few of the "veterans" read:lazies, would be getting the press box.

Also the notion that people here can't express an opinion because they aren't in the locker room or aren't an NHL level coach is the most fundamentally stupid commentary I don't even know where to begin, and I see those comments a lot. Yeah, no fataing kidding I'm not in the dressing room, but that's the point of this message board and discussion, people are allowed to read into actions, interviews and rumours, and nobody ever claims to 100% know the situation ever anyway. These defences are usually raised when the Flames are being questioned and posters rush to the defence of the team because it's being criticized and they don't actually have a response other than- "you're overreacting", or "you're not the coach or qualified to make a statement". Oh really? Wonderful insight. But, unfortunately for you, this is a message board and my opinions don't 100% have to be in support of the Flames, particularly when they do non-sense moves like sit the rookie who doesn't deserve to be sat in an actual meritocracy, when the direction this team must stick to is the youth movement. Not the, float around vet movement. We've been tortured by that movement for, literally, years.

I was at the game and he was working his butt off. However, when things weren't going well for the team, Hartley started mixing the lines.

I said to the wife: Hartley will put Cammalleri with Monahan and demote Baertschi Then he'll be in Abby two games later.

Could see it coming - Hartley has consistently been quick to pull the minutes from Baertschi.

I don't mind young guys getting benched. But I have watched Baertschi closely all year and he is doing everything he can. But Hartley is never impressed.

As for his production, 4 pts in 9 games is no hell but anyone who has been paying attention knows that he was instrumental in 2 or 3 o Monahan's goals that he didn't get assists for. He has been more effective than his point totals suggest.

As for Baertschi saying he didn't play well in Phx, I don't think that's what he said at all. He said he thought he has been playing well but "the way the last game went, I felt they weren't too happy" All he is saying is that when his ice-time started to get cut, he knew what was coming. He never said he thought he played poorly. And he didn't.

No worries though, I am sure he learned a lot watching the veterans last night.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Stay Golden

Benching Sven accomplished nothing when the team plays flat and gets shelled 5-1. That plan blew up in Hartley and the Brass's face.

and I'm actually glad.

The organization is choosing to spend the 2nd lowest amount of money in the league on salary. In doing so, it seemed as if the organization was promising to the fans that this was for a purpose - to play the young players, to share some growing pains with them. To develop the young talent in the organization in an effort to build a team that would dominate for years to come.

Last night, Hartley effectively told us that's all BS. It actually angered me.

If the team isn't actually committing to the rebuild, then there's no point to it.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Quote:
A few bad shifts and you’re out of the lineup

This is what's wrong with how this organization develops talent. You have to give younger players the space to make, and then learn from their mistakes.

Monahan, Brodie, Butler and others seem to get this leeway...for whatever reason, Sven doesn't.

Stupid is as stupid does.

That is the telling quote for me.

Baertschi feels like if he has a few bad shifts, he loses ice-time (because that is exactly how Hartley treats him)

No one can play well in those circumstances - especially a creative, offensive player.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Realtor 1

I can come up with 2 reasons for him to be a scratch to every 1 come up with keeping him in the lineup!

Alright let's see...

Reasons to keep him in the line-up:

1: He's proven he can play in this league
2: He takes the tough assignments (Plays against other teams best guys)
3: He takes the hard circumstances (Get's more d-zone starts then o-zone starts)
4: He's given enough in the past that he deserves to be given the opportunity to work through his troubles
5: Press boxing him forces the coach to dress an inferior player
6: Healthy scratching him will not do any favors to his trade value

... Your 12 reasons?

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I was at the game and he was working his butt off. However, when things weren't going well for the team, Hartley started mixing the lines.

I said to the wife: Hartley will put Cammalleri with Monahan and demote Baertschi Then he'll be in Abby two games later.

Could see it coming - Hartley has consistently been quick to pull the minutes from Baertschi.

I don't mind young guys getting benched. But I have watched Baertschi closely all year and he is doing everything he can. But Hartley is never impressed.

As for his production, 4 pts in 9 games is no hell but anyone who has been paying attention knows that he was instrumental in 2 or 3 o Monahan's goals that he didn't get assists for. He has been more effective than his point totals suggest.

As for Baertschi saying he didn't play well in Phx, I don't think that's what he said at all. He said he thought he has been playing well but "the way the last game went, I felt they weren't too happy" All he is saying is that when his ice-time started to get cut, he knew what was coming. He never said he thought he played poorly. And he didn't.

No worries though, I am sure he learned a lot watching the veterans last night.

The only thing he learned from the vets last night was how to float and lose.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

That is the telling quote for me.

Baertschi feels like if he has a few bad shifts, he loses ice-time (because that is exactly how Hartley treats him)

No one can play well in those circumstances - especially a creative, offensive player.

Yeah I don't get the tough love approach from Hartley on Sven but outside of Monahan he's been pretty consistent in treating rookies like this. It looks like Horak will never play for the Hartley's team and it will be interesting to see how he handles Breen when Gio comes back. Maybe this is the way he's going to do things to keep the team competitive until they are totally out of the playoff race like last year when he finally let the kids play. Hard to say if he's doing things right or wrong because we have seen up north that just handing out ice time to kids deserved or not hasn't yielded complete players that can play a team game.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

The only thing he learned from the vets last night was how to float and lose.

That was the joke.

It was absolutely pointless to bench Baertschi, and the coaches and management should be embarrassed.

We are a team in limbo with decisions like this, and I'm getting sick of it.

[redforever]

I wonder if Burke has some influence on the decisions about Baertschi? given his prior comments about Baertschi's play?

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

That was the joke.

It was absolutely pointless to bench Baertschi, and the coaches and management should be embarrassed.

We are a team in limbo with decisions like this, and I'm getting sick of it.

Perhaps the point was to make it clear how hard you need to play to secure your spot in the NHL. Instead of handing it out, and having him turn out like the boys in Edmonton, perhaps there is very real value in showing him he has to work twice as hard as the veterans to stick.

It doesn't seem fair, nor would most on the board be happy if that were the case, but let's be frank: Hartley knows more about Baertschi than any of us ever will. I would have no problem putting him through the ringer and forcing him to push twice as hard to stick in the show, because once he DOES, he has that work ethic and durability ingrained in him.

I know we all want Bart to play every game, but development wise none of us can say this is a bad call. But hey, it's the Internet, so overreact like crazy I guess.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by redforever

I wonder if Burke has some influence on the decisions about Baertschi? given his prior comments about Baertschi's play?

Absolutely not. This is all Hartley here. This has been going on long before Burke got here. There is something in Sven's game that Hartley doesn't like. Maybe it's not apparent to us but it's something.

[SuperMatt18]

The only thing that I could see is his lack of physical play, hence the Gallagher comments that were made by Hartley.

Baerstchi still doesn't really go to the net with authority and can bail out on making hits on the forecheck in the offensive zone. Really that is all I can think of that I saw in the two games in L.A. and PHX.

He has committed himself in the defensive zone, and done quite well at that, but they maybe looking for a little more tenacity in the offensive zone.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Absolutely not. This is all Hartley here. This has been going on long before Burke got here. There is something in Sven's game that Hartley doesn't like. Maybe it's not apparent to us but it's something.

Yep, it certainly appears that way. Yet at the same time, both he and Feaster simple LOVE Jackman's game from top to bottom. I mean they must, no other reason you re-sign and continue to play this guy; he quite literally is one of the most useless players I have ever watched play on the Flames. At least Rocky Thompson, while he couldn't skate, shoot, pass and if I recall, even had a hard time stringing together a coherent sentence, the guy at least got fans out of their seats and provided some cheap entertainment.

I realize Sven and Jackman aren't competing for similar spots in the lineup, but just the principle of continuing to play that bag of steaming garbage while sitting Sven and preaching meritocracy is enough to make me sick.

[GGG]

I think that watching the play is a good learning experience for players. You see things watching that you don't when you play. I would expect young players to be benched occasionally to reset expectations and for them to go up and learn.

If this is for more than one game or he goes back to Abbotsford then I will get out my pitch fork but having him sit even every 8th game or so has some merit. I would love to see any under-performing top 9 forward be sat out on a rotating basis. I like that we have 1 extra forward right now. Whoever is the weak link sits the next game. Glencross should be up next.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Absolutely not. This is all Hartley here. This has been going on long before Burke got here. There is something in Sven's game that Hartley doesn't like. Maybe it's not apparent to us but it's something.

I suspect Hartley thinks Sven has another level or 2 in him. Maybe he is trying to see how hard he can push him to compete more but obviously I for one can't read Hartley's mind.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

The only thing he learned from the vets last night was how to float and lose.

I think that was his point.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

Yep, it certainly appears that way. Yet at the same time, both he and Feaster simple LOVE Jackman's game from top to bottom. I mean they must, no other reason you re-sign and continue to play this guy; he quite literally is one of the most useless players I have ever watched play on the Flames. At least Rocky Thompson, while he couldn't skate, shoot, pass and if I recall, even had a hard time stringing together a coherent sentence, the guy at least got fans out of their seats and provided some cheap entertainment.

I realize Sven and Jackman aren't competing for similar spots in the lineup, but just the principle of continuing to play that bag of steaming garbage while sitting Sven and preaching meritocracy is enough to make me sick.

There should be a feature on this website that automatically thanks people whenever they mention Rocky Thompson.

When the game was still 4-1 it seemed like Jackman was on the ice a lot. During one play he chased the puck behind the Dallas net and checked someone into the boards. Jackman threw his elbow up nearly hitting one of the players in the face. I think if that had connected he probably would have a 5 to 10 game suspension. I really don't like the guy.

I think Jooris, Bouma, Colborne would be a scarier 4th line. Relentless and can score.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Really surprised to see such lack of sophistication when it comes to the sport by some on here.

Rebuild = play young players all the time
Develop young players = Just keep giving them minutes, it's the only way.
Hartley likes hard work = Old style coaching

Surprised more so many need to analyse to try and simplify the situations that much, wouldn't have suspected it tbh.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Really surprised to see such lack of sophistication when it comes to the sport by some on here.

Rebuild = play young players all the time
Develop young players = Just keep giving them minutes, it's the only way.
Hartley likes hard work = Old style coaching

Surprised more so many need to analyse to try and simplify the situations that much, wouldn't have suspected it tbh.

Well I guess I'm just a dumb caveman since I didn't see the reason Baertschi needed to be a scratch.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

There should be a feature on this website that automatically thanks people whenever they mention Rocky Thompson.

When the game was still 4-1 it seemed like Jackman was on the ice a lot. During one play he chased the puck behind the Dallas net and checked someone into the boards. Jackman threw his elbow up nearly hitting one of the players in the face. I think if that had connected he probably would have a 5 to 10 game suspension. I really don't like the guy.

I think Jooris, Bouma, Colborne would be a scarier 4th line. Relentless and can score.

When was the last time Jackman even threw a big hit? I can't seem to remember a single game where his game stood out or I saw him finish a check that made an impace. It's like he is trying to be a 3rd line scoring winger who checks once in a while.