[News] Kessel suspended rest of preseason. Will not miss any regular season games

[Hockeyboi]

Originally Posted by valo403

Huh? I don't think it's a major suspension, but it's still punishment. Not sure how you can deny that.

Pre-season is only a big deal for rookies who are out fighting for a place on the team and are trying to get to the NHL, Kessel is a star on the Leafs team therefor he already has a place on the team and doesn't have have impress his coach or management so what does Kessel care about pre-season?..... Kessel may not have injuried Scott but when you swing at someone the intent is to hurt the other person. I believe the NHL where far to soft on Kessel!!

[valo403]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Keep going. Someone's mind is going to be changed. I just know it!....

I don't even know what he's trying to convince me of. He's crafting arguments based on things I didn't even say.

Just so we're clear, here is my stance:

Kessel had a reasonable belief that he was about to get his ass kicked. He responded to that with a slash that pushed the limits of a reasonable response, but IMO stays within it. There is of course a risk that he could have hit someone in the head if we change the facts to place a player behind him, but he didn't, and the risk of that does not outweigh the risk he reasonably perceived from Scott. I give him a pass and place the majority of the blame for creating the possibility of harm befalling anyone on Scott.

I'm not going to go into the follow up slashes as I have repeatedly (like a dozen times) said that they crossed the line.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Hockeyboi

Pre-season is only a big deal for rookies who are out fighting for a place on the team and are trying to get to the NHL, Kessel is a star on the Leafs team therefor he already has a place on the team and doesn't have have impress his coach or management so what does Kessel care about pre-season?..... Kessel may not have injuried Scott but when you swing at someone the intent is to hurt the other person. I believe the NHL where far to soft on Kessel!!

I mean it's soft, but it's really not out of line with what we've seen in the past. It puts him on the offender list, so he's up for more if he does something down the road. I imagine the instigation played a part, if he'd just skated up to a post whistle scrum and 2 handed like that I have to think he gets more. It could also be a bit of a message to guy's like Scott, telling them that the league isn't going to suspend guys for defending themselves when you go after them.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by valo403

I'm not going to go into the follow up slashes as I have repeatedly (like a dozen times) said that they crossed the line.

I'm still okay with the second slash! I'm also okay with Ashton jumping on Scott's back while Scott is throwing punches into Brennan.

Two kids in a pre-season game shouldn't have to take on a monster goon with instructions to "smash".

[strombad]

Originally Posted by valo403

I don't even know what he's trying to convince me of. He's crafting arguments based on things I didn't even say.

Just so we're clear, here is my stance:

Kessel had a reasonable belief that he was about to get his ass kicked. He responded to that with a slash that pushed the limits of a reasonable response, but IMO stays within it. There is of course a risk that he could have hit someone in the head if we change the facts to place a player behind him, but he didn't, and the risk of that does not outweigh the risk he reasonably perceived from Scott. I give him a pass and place the majority of the blame for creating the possibility of harm befalling anyone on Scott.

I'm not going to go into the follow up slashes as I have repeatedly (like a dozen times) said that they crossed the line.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything other than the fact that Kessel endangered Scott equally if not more than Scott endangered Kessel.

Pretty simple, but it looks like you're kind of backtracking into that position (despite blaming Kessel's ignorant use of his stick as a weapon on Scott), so I'll let it slide. Plus you admitted to the fact that Scott beating on Kessel was hypothetical, so we're cool.

That really took forever.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by fotze

I think the number of times someone at Calgarypuck has ever had their mind changed is probably less than 5.

Wow. Less than 5?

Someone is feeling generous this morning

[Hockeyboi]

Originally Posted by valo403

I mean it's soft, but it's really not out of line with what we've seen in the past. It puts him on the offender list, so he's up for more if he does something down the road. I imagine the instigation played a part, if he'd just skated up to a post whistle scrum and 2 handed like that I have to think he gets more. It could also be a bit of a message to guy's like Scott, telling them that the league isn't going to suspend guys for defending themselves when you go after them.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one bud.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by strombad

I'm not trying to convince you of anything other than the fact that Kessel endangered Scott equally if not more than Scott endangered Kessel.

Pretty simple, but it looks like you're kind of backtracking into that position (despite blaming Kessel's ignorant use of his stick as a weapon on Scott), so I'll let it slide. Plus you admitted to the fact that Scott beating on Kessel was hypothetical, so we're cool.

That really took forever.

Well in terms of how it played out sure, but I'd argue that's only because Kessel defended himself and escaped danger. If Kessel doesn't do that he's eating Scott's fist, which I would argue is much more likely to cause injury than a slash to the shin pads.

Basically there are two scenarios, one where Kessel defends himself and one where he doesn't. If he defends himself of course Scott likely faces more harm, he's been prevented from inflicting any. If he doesn't defend himself Kessel likely faces more harm. You can tell me that Scott was simply going to cuddle with him, but there's no way for anyone to know that, most importantly Kessel at the time he decides to defend himself.

And yes I'm blaming his use of his stick on Scott, he's the proximate cause of the entire incident. If he doesn't start things nothing happens, including this thread.

I'm not sure where I ever argued that Scott beating on Kessel was anything but hypothetical. It didn't happen, not in this dimension, what else would it be?

[Hockeyboi]

http://causewaycrowd.com/2013/09/26/...an-bites-back/
Not often I side with a Shark player but it's a very good point!!

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Hockeyboi

http://causewaycrowd.com/2013/09/26/...an-bites-back/
Not often I side with a Shark player but it's a very good point!!

I like how Shanahan's answer to "why" was essentially "because I said so".

Really valuable work right there.

[valo403]

Consistency is definitely an issue, but it's also going to be really hard to make decisions that everyone sees as consistent when there's so much subjectivity involved. Australia's NRL uses (or at least did the last time I checked) a category system, where certain actions fall into predetermined slots and then arguments can be made to move them up or down. Maybe something like that would add some consistency, but at the end of the day even there the decision comes down to a panel review.

[strombad]

Absolutely. Plus, the system is fairly new by NHL standards, so there is a lot of areas to improve upon.

I'm not sure this is what you mean when referencing the NRL, but I think it'd be fair to see some sort of system where an action (say a hit to the head) is an automatic 5-20 games (or something like that) and then the players get to plead their case as to why it should be 5, and not 20.

At least it might give a little bit of consistency.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by strombad

Absolutely. Plus, the system is fairly new by NHL standards, so there is a lot of areas to improve upon.

I'm not sure this is what you mean when referencing the NRL, but I think it'd be fair to see some sort of system where an action (say a hit to the head) is an automatic 5-20 games (or something like that) and then the players get to plead their case as to why it should be 5, and not 20.

At least it might give a little bit of consistency.

Yeah it's kind of like that, they basically split offenses into 5 grades and assign demerits. It's fairly confusing, especially reading the explanation without context, but it provides a bit more structure which could be helpful for the NHL.

http://www.nrl.com/nrlhq/referencece...5/default.aspx

[Enoch Root]

I think that's exactly what they should do - or something similar at least.

Too much subjectivity right now. Set up catagories, and then add escalation levels for repeat offenders.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Hockeyboi

http://causewaycrowd.com/2013/09/26/...an-bites-back/
Not often I side with a Shark player but it's a very good point!!

Observation #4 in the conclusion of that piece is pretty amusing given its naïvety.

[Hockeyboi]

If I was Vlasic I'd be somewhat pissed off as well, Kessel loses 3 meaningless games and doesn't lose a cent while Vlasic was fined for the same thing. Should be the same punishment for every player no matter what their standing in a team. Any wonder people shake their head in confusion at some of Shanahan's calls!