Would you support Rainbow on Hockey Unis for Sochi?

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Yet you still made that response to my post......

Your post seems to draw a false equivalence between having negative views about gay rights with being poor as a means to invalidate those beliefs.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Your post seems to draw a false equivalence between having negative views about gay rights with being poor as a means to invalidate those beliefs.

It wasn't meant to.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Wolven

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...n-refugee.html

Read that article. 2 weeks old. A gay Russian is seeking refuge status in Canada.

Just because you are not aware of how bad the situation is does not mean that I am blowing things out of proportion.

Jesus Christ.

Okay I will say this once, because apparently people here are too consumed in their own beliefs to read between the lines just a little.

I DISAGREE WITH WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE.

BUT I REFUSE TO PASS JUDGEMENT ON A SOCIETY WHEN I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY THEY THINK HOW THEY DO.

I BELIEVE YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE THINKING BEHIND BELIEFS BEFORE THEY CAN BE CHANGED, BECAUSE NOTHING CHANGES OVER NIGHT.

The part I believe is being blown out of proportion is the reaction I am getting for this belief. If the majority does not have the ability to grasp why I believe what I do, then that is very sad.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I BELIEVE YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE THINKING BEHIND BELIEFS BEFORE THEY CAN BE CHANGED, BECAUSE NOTHING CHANGES OVER NIGHT.

.

AB, is there a line of thinking that would be acceptable to you justify their beliefs?

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

It wasn't meant to.

Ok then. No problem. I meant no offense, just to point out what I saw.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by strombad

Well, you still can't explain your defence of human rights violations, so it's probably for the best.

Except I never defended anything. Your inability to understand that is your problem, not mine.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

AB, is there a line of thinking that would be acceptable to you justify their beliefs?

What I believe is irrelevant, that is why I hadn't been sharing my beliefs or commenting on the human rights violations. What I believe changes nothing, you need to understand why people think how they do to change how they think.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

The part I believe is being blown out of proportion is the reaction I am getting for this belief. If the majority does not have the ability to grasp why I believe what I do, then that is very sad.

Ah, and here I thought you said I was blowing things out of proportion by comparing this situation with how gays are being treated to other horrible human rights situations such as slavery and persecution of Gays, Jews, Blacks, etc by the Nazis. It distinctly sounded that way from your post.

What I think is sad is that you feel that you feel need to understand how the Russians feel about beating, killing and jailing gay people before you can judge that treatment as wrong. Personally, I do not care if the average Russian is proud that they beat up a gay guy for being gay, I know that is wrong.

Unfortunately, the Russian government has made the situation even worse by making "gay" illegal. Especially when they are preparing to host a global event (Olympics) and they are coming out and saying that the law will apply to the althletes or spectators that go to the games.

I used to think it would be pretty cool to go to Russia and going to the Winter games would be awesome. Potentially seeing people get arrested for their sexual orientation has completely removed Russia from my travel wishlist.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Jesus Christ.

Okay I will say this once, because apparently people here are too consumed in their own beliefs to read between the lines just a little.

I DISAGREE WITH WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE.

BUT I REFUSE TO PASS JUDGEMENT ON A SOCIETY WHEN I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY THEY THINK HOW THEY DO.

I BELIEVE YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE THINKING BEHIND BELIEFS BEFORE THEY CAN BE CHANGED, BECAUSE NOTHING CHANGES OVER NIGHT.

The part I believe is being blown out of proportion is the reaction I am getting for this belief. If the majority does not have the ability to grasp why I believe what I do, then that is very sad.

I get what you're saying. I don't agree with it all, but it seems pretty straightforward.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Ah, and here I thought you said I was blowing things out of proportion by comparing this situation with how gays are being treated to other horrible human rights situations such as slavery and persecution of Gays, Jews, Blacks, etc by the Nazis. It distinctly sounded that way from your post.

What I think is sad is that you feel that you feel need to understand how the Russians feel about beating, killing and jailing gay people before you can judge that treatment as wrong. Personally, I do not care if the average Russian is proud that they beat up a gay guy for being gay, I know that is wrong.

Unfortunately, the Russian government has made the situation even worse by making "gay" illegal. Especially when they are preparing to host a global event (Olympics) and they are coming out and saying that the law will apply to the althletes or spectators that go to the games.

I used to think it would be pretty cool to go to Russia and going to the Winter games would be awesome. Potentially seeing people get arrested for their sexual orientation has completely removed Russia from my travel wishlist.

And what I think is sad is that you have no desire to try and understand why these injustices are happening.

You can't stop these things unless you understand it.

It's like Cancer. What would be better, finding a cure, or finding a way to stop people from ever getting it to start with? Personally I think the right answer is finding a way to stop people from ever getting it.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I get what you're saying. I don't agree with it all, but it seems pretty straightforward.

And I can respect that you don't agree, but you aren't one of the ones that is making it look like I am supporting the injustices of the world because I believe we need to find the underlying problem.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

And what I think is sad is that you have no desire to try and understand why these injustices are happening.

You can't stop these things unless you understand it.

It's like Cancer. What would be better, finding a cure, or finding a way to stop people from ever getting it to start with? Personally I think the right answer is finding a way to stop people from ever getting it.

I am not sure that a conscious decision by a gov't to target a section of the population is the same as Cancer, but I am no Oncologist.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I am not sure that a conscious decision by a gov't to target a section of the population is the same as Cancer, but I am no Oncologist.

Why do I even bother

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

And I can respect that you don't agree, but you aren't one of the ones that is making it look like I am supporting the injustices of the world because I believe we need to find the underlying problem.

Yeah, just throwing out some support for you not being treated as an irrational nut job racist based on some failures to get what I think your meaning is.

Anyways, off to sleep for me.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

No one deserves to be attacked! Agree or disagree no one should be attacked over an opinion.

So we are unjustified in attacking someone becasue they have a different opinion on whether or not everyone should be afforded the same basic rights, but it is prefectly fine for a government to attack those who simply love someone that the government thinks they shouldn't?

Got it.
Thanks for clearing that up in a consistently logical, and not at all ######ed way.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Except I never defended anything. Your inability to understand that is your problem, not mine.

You did. You defend them by reserving judgement. Someone says "Hey, lets throw every gay person in jail", and you say "Whoa! Don't pass judgement on these people who are throwing them in jail. We don't know how they came to this decision!"

That's defence. You say you disagree with it, but you defend it. Plain and simple there are NO excuses to commit violations on human rights. Full stop. There is no grey area. You are arguing under the veil of something good, but by doing so you are defending the decision to jail people based on sexual orientation. Plus, as I've said COUNTLESS times, your logic is flawed. By your logic, we can't judge genocide or killing of innocent people because we 'don't understand' the reasons for it happening. Come on man. You're no better than the people you're defending at this point.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

And what I think is sad is that you have no desire to try and understand why these injustices are happening.

You can't stop these things unless you understand it.

Why do you think this is some special situation where understanding is so hard to attain? It wasn't that long ago that very similar behaviors were displayed in North America (and in a number of places they are still ongoing).

Do you really think that the Russian mind/culture is so very different that the answer is something new and unique? Do you feel that you need a PhD to be able to figure out the inner workings of Russian culture to find a magic switch to make them stop oppressing a a certain group of people?

History already provides many examples of similar situations and many different paths for trying to stop the problem.

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

It's like Cancer. What would be better, finding a cure, or finding a way to stop people from ever getting it to start with? Personally I think the right answer is finding a way to stop people from ever getting it.

Generally speaking though, sitting back and doing nothing has never been a very successful decision when it comes to fighting cancer. Trying to find ways to prevent it is great but if you have a patient with cancer sitting right in front of you, you should really deal with him immediately instead of waiting for him to die while you go off to find a way to prevent someone else from getting it.

Which is better? It doesn't matter because there are enough resources to do both (prevention and treatment).

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

Like I have said repeatedly, since I am not in their shoes I have no ####ing clue. I refuse to pass judgement on a group of people without understanding what they are thinking. It's not a difficult concept, but I understand it's a foreign one since no one wants to believe that their beliefs might not be right for everyone.

Well, let me suggest to you then, that by that principle, you must refuse to pass judgment on anyone (as it is of course impossible to what anyone may or may not be thinking at any given moment.) As someone who works in the criminal justice system, that seems problematic.

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

No one deserves to be attacked! Agree or disagree no one should be attacked over an opinion.

I draw a distinction between attacking a person and attacking an opinion. For the most part, I agree that people should not be attacked (even for an offensive opinion.) Often, a person may hold an opinion for many complex factors, including things they may not have any control over (i.e., level of education, exposure to negative influences, indoctrination at a young age, etc.) However, in my opinion, the opinions themselves, especially when publicly (or legislatively) expressed, are absolutely fair game and should stand or fall on their own merits.

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

I never said it would. The forcing comment came from someone else who said change needs to be forced. I have also said outright I have zero issue with individuals showing their support for gay rights.

Fair enough. I missed the context of your comments apparently. So then you wouldn't criticise the Canadian Men's Olympic Hockey Team if they collectively decided (whether by consensus or otherwise) to wear a rainbow on their uniforms in support of the rights of gay persons in Russia?

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by strombad

Plain and simple there are NO excuses to commit violations on human rights. Full stop. There is no grey area.

As an aside, I disagree with this. There are clearly instances where societies or governments are justified in violating or infringing people's human rights. As I noted before, section 1 of Canada's Charter explicitly recognizes this reality. And often it is indeed a very grey and very murky area.

It just isn't a grey area in the case of Russia's anti-gay legislation.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Makarov

As an aside, I disagree with this. There are clearly instances where societies or governments are justified in violating or infringing people's human rights. As I noted before, section 1 of Canada's Charter explicitly recognizes this reality. And often it is indeed a very grey and very murky area.

It just isn't a grey area in the case of Russia's anti-gay legislation.

I see your point, I may have mis worded that. What I mean is essentially what you said, in that humans rights violations regarding the persecution or killing of a certain type of people based on genetics is ALWAYS wrong.