Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Salt Water Cowboy #10

I agree you can save money by reducing your personal carbon footprint. Which people should be mindful of. But I’m like you and I try and be practical in general when it comes to life. I still don’t want to hand money over so I can get a rebate. And that goes with anything I buy. Luxury taxes for spendy people and corporations that pollute should be more of the the target for carbon tax. I don’t know what happens to all the money and I’m not sure I want to understand, but making it more expensive to live for the general tax paying citizen shouldn’t be the route taken in my opinion. We’ll see how it goes though because it’s not going to go away.

They are though. The same principles apply, but without the rebate. So if a corporation finds the tax large enough, they will do something about it, like putting solar panels on their warehouse to reduce energy costs, or buying a fleet of electric delivery vans instead of gas. All help reduce Canada's emissions.

The issue with the carbon tax is that the people against it don't seen to really understand it, they are just against it because they have been told to. Like, I'm not even convinced CO2 emissions are that big a threat to society compared to other issues, but even someone like me can see the value in them.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by StickMan

Per Capita is a stupid argument when the problem is global emissions. It only matters where the majority of emissions come from. A guy sitting on an island having a camp fire has bigger per Capita emissions on that island then anyone in China, should we focus on putting out his fire?

I think you don't understand how the carbon tax is not about reducing emissions, it is about tax revenue for Trudeau. A real climate plan would look at the global problem areas and try to help.

Okay cool, so Canada isn't the problem, we don't have to do anything.
The US is a big emitter, let's focus on them.
Oh, but California is only about the size of canada, and they use way less heating than we do, so since they are only the same size as Canada California is isn't part of the problem.
Texas too.
Also Florida...and Ohio...and Michigan.....

I love your logic, we just reframe the problem until we can completely shirk responsibility!

Your argument boils down to "No one can fix the whole problem, so everyone should ignore doing their own part."

As to the second point, okay cool, how can Canada help on the global scale?
Do we send money to China to move away from coal? Where do we get that money?
By doing our part to reduce our per capital emissions we are looking globally, by making changes in the only part of the globe we can directly control.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Think about it. Do you cut down on your driving because of the carbon tax?

The carbon tax is just a make work project for the bureaucrats...just like the old gun registration. It costs a lot of time and money to carrying it out, and achieves very little.

In the long run what is going to disappear first...the tax or the rebate. You can bet it will be the latter, if the Liberals stay in power.

Aren't we hoping it is the bad weather?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Several ways the carbon tax works/is effective:

1) a perceived increase in the price of things, like say gasoline, incentivize people to use less, like say take transit (I'll grant this doesn't work for home heating, but if people turn the thermostat down 1 degree because their bill is high that still helps, inches make miles and all that). Most households get their money back, and in some cases even more, so they've made choices to reduce GHG emissions without actually paying for them.

2) revenue from the carbon tax is used for grants to pay for projects that will reduce GHGs. For example the company I work for is spending ~$1.5MM for upgrades to compressor engines that will reduce methane slip, and improve fuel efficiency, thus reducing both our GHG emissions and our carbon tax bill. Most of that $1.5 MM is being paid for by grants to do these sorts of things, and that is $ that is coming from carbon tax revenue. So the carbon tax is going directly to projects that will reduce GHG emissions.


But of course you already knew those things. Surely you wouldn't complain about a program that you didn't understand the general workings of.

So consumers, many of whom are struggling to make ends meet, are fronting money to the government for a full year and then they get a rebate cheque back. Seems pretty dumb.

Especially when multiple provinces are trying to help low income families with $500 payments.

Everytime I read the comments on CP on the carbon tax, and 'oh well you get a rebate back', it strikes me that the average poster here likely does not struggle to pay rent or food, and they completely forget that there are in fact people out there who would prefer not to pay even more for fuel, even if they get a rebate back at the end of the year.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm pretty sure you get the refund before payout, so you aren't "fronting" the money.

It works in a simple way. You pay carbon tax, on, say gas for your vehicle. If you drive less, you pay less. If you find commuting in your F-99950 costing too much in gas(partly due to the tax) maybe you trade it for a Civic. Boom emissions reduced.

My house had crappy insulation, and I paid carbon tax on natural gas. So this summer I reinsulated. I now save money on heating, and use less. Emissions reduced.

The benefit to citizens is you get a rebate, so the less you spend towards the carbon tax, the more of a net benefit it is to you. I bike to work, drive a reasonably sized vehicle, live in a reasonably sized house, and probably come out ahead, and it also all contributes to reduced emissions. This is only a small portion of how the tax works, but a good example.

If you pay carbon tax on fuel, how are you in fact not fronting the money? Same thing with heating bills, etc? Is the carbon tax not charged with each payment?

[jayswin]

Speaking of the carbon rebate, when is the next one coming in Alberta, again?

[wireframe]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Think about it. Do you cut down on your driving because of the carbon tax?

The carbon tax is just a make work project for the bureaucrats...just like the old gun registration. It costs a lot of time and money to carrying it out, and achieves very little.

In the long run what is going to disappear first...the tax or the rebate. You can bet it will be the latter, if the Liberals stay in power.

Yes. Much less. In addition, I've done more to insulate my house like Fuzz mentioned. The carbon tax is clearly working on my family. We're happy to spend less and bank that rebate.


It sounds like you have chosen not to drive any less and that's your choice, but now you pay more for it and receive a rebate to partially cancel that out.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Speaking of the carbon rebate, when is the next one coming in Alberta, again?

Should be the first half of October. Don't know the specific date though.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Azure

If you pay carbon tax on fuel, how are you in fact not fronting the money? Same thing with heating bills, etc? Is the carbon tax not charged with each payment?

Sigh. Because you get the rebate AHEAD of paying it. The government is fronting us money. Think of it like getting a $539 pot of money, and every time you pay the tax you subtract it from that pot. If you pay out less than that, boom, you are winning. If you pay out more than that, it's incentive to use less.

Under this proposal, in order to return fuel charge proceeds in advance of their collection for a quarter, CAI payments would be delivered at the beginning of each quarter. Payments delivered to Canadians in April would thus return the fuel charge proceeds collected during the April-June quarter, July payments would return those for the July-September quarter, October payments would return those for the October-December quarter, and January payments would return those for the January-March quarter. Payment amounts would increase in April of each year as the fuel charge increases.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-...quarterly.html

[Ozy_Flame]

My wife and I have managed to cut down to one car in the last year, and have reduced some basic things that used energy before, including planting more of a permaculture-based yard and using more rainwater. We also have solar panels which - while doesn't really get impacted by the carbon tax - helps us move towards being energy neutral and can contribute energy back into the grid.

Carbon Tax or not, we're finding ways to reduce our footprint and also in some ways money, which helps us bank that rebate.

[Azure]

And likewise for heating costs and everything else where consumers are going to pay more for something?

Including the costs that corporations are going to pass onto to consumers in order to pay for the tax?

I know companies who are paying a carbon tax for propane heating. Guess how they are handling it?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Azure

And likewise for heating costs and everything else where consumers are going to pay more for something?

Including the costs that corporations are going to pass onto to consumers in order to pay for the tax?

I know companies who are paying a carbon tax for propane heating. Guess how they are handling it?

Which is taken into account with the rebate.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Azure

So consumers, many of whom are struggling to make ends meet, are fronting money to the government for a full year and then they get a rebate cheque back. Seems pretty dumb.

Especially when multiple provinces are trying to help low income families with $500 payments.

Everytime I read the comments on CP on the carbon tax, and 'oh well you get a rebate back', it strikes me that the average poster here likely does not struggle to pay rent or food, and they completely forget that there are in fact people out there who would prefer not to pay even more for fuel, even if they get a rebate back at the end of the year.

You sure seem to be upset about how this whole program works. Obviously you really understand the workings of it.
Case in point, you completely understand how getting quarterly rebates (that increase prior to the carbon tax going up) equates to fronting money for a full year. Getting money first, and then paying out, doesn't sound like I'm fronting the money, but what do I know?

Please, provide us with more insight into how you think this program works. Cause learning about how it actually works, is way more boring.

[StickMan]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

They are though. The same principles apply, but without the rebate. So if a corporation finds the tax large enough, they will do something about it, like putting solar panels on their warehouse to reduce energy costs, or buying a fleet of electric delivery vans instead of gas. All help reduce Canada's emissions.

The issue with the carbon tax is that the people against it don't seen to really understand it, they are just against it because they have been told to. Like, I'm not even convinced CO2 emissions are that big a threat to society compared to other issues, but even someone like me can see the value in them.

I don't think you understand the carbon tax, you somehow feel virtuous paying it like you are helping, but in reality you are just paying another tax so Trudeau can waste the money.

What do you see as the end result of the carbon tax? You see less vehicle and home pollution in Canada ONLY? Do you see the replacement form of energy being completely green? Then what? You've helped prevent about 0.001% of global emissions? And as result everyone in Canada is poor and struggling as inflation continues to skyrocket and global emissions continue to increase year over year? Carbon tax is not a climate plan, it won't make any noticable difference reducing global emissions, if you think otherwise you are delusional. Trudeau is a selfish idiot, nothing he does is in the best interest of anyone but Trudeau.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

You sure seem to be upset about how this whole program works. Obviously you really understand the workings of it.
Case in point, you completely understand how getting quarterly rebates equates to fronting money for a full year.

Please, provide us with more insight into how you think this program works. Cause learning about how it actually works, is way more boring.

I am actually in favor of the carbon tax, but it should only apply to big emitters.

As an example Walmart should pay a carbon tax if they use propane to heat their buildings, but a small business should not have too. This would encourage the deep pockets to avoid the tax, but protect small businesses.

And just because Fuzz thinks money grows on trees in the fantasy world he is living in and it is easy to just pop on some solar panels and buy some EVs to avoid the tax, doesn't mean that it is actually cost effective to do that, or that small business has the financial means.

[StickMan]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

My wife and I have managed to cut down to one car in the last year, and have reduced some basic things that used energy before, including planting more of a permaculture-based yard and using more rainwater. We also have solar panels which - while doesn't really get impacted by the carbon tax - helps us move towards being energy neutral and can contribute energy back into the grid.

Carbon Tax or not, we're finding ways to reduce our footprint and also in some ways money, which helps us bank that rebate.

This is great, but unfortunate your foot print isn't the problem. You have solved a problem that doesn't exist, but at least you are feeling good about blowing money for the sake of blowing money. Now put on your thinking cap and think of ways that you can help reduce emissions in problem countries, maybe buy more local? Why does china emit so much? Because they make your solar panels and ship them all the way across the ocean to you so you can feel more virtuous? Not buying those solar panels from China probably would have done more to save the environment. You have to think bigger.

[Salt Water Cowboy #10]

Originally Posted by Azure

And likewise for heating costs and everything else where consumers are going to pay more for something?

Including the costs that corporations are going to pass onto to consumers in order to pay for the tax?

I know companies who are paying a carbon tax for propane heating. Guess how they are handling it?

But you as a consumer have a choice about what to buy and who to buy from.
People that have to get to work to afford life, don’t have a choice in some of the necessities required to live, and have a family. And a $500 check is small potatoes in the grand scheme of it all. Especially if your cost of living has increased. Which it has for everyone. I just think there could be a better way to do this.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by StickMan

This is great, but unfortunate your foot print isn't the problem. You have solved a problem that doesn't exist, but at least you are feeling good about blowing money for the sake of blowing money. Now put on your thinking cap and think of ways that you can help reduce emissions in problem countries, maybe buy more local? Why does china emit so much? Because they make your solar panels and ship them all the way across the ocean to you so you can feel more virtuous? Not buying those solar panels from China probably would have done more to save the environment. You have to think bigger.

So at what size does doing your part matter?
I see you've completely ignored my posts that point out the absurdity of your stance which seems to be "I can't fix the whole problem, so I'm not gonna fix my part"

To use a hockey analogy, why should any 4th liner put their body on the line. Making that last check isn't going to win them the game, it's the superstars who matter, so only they should have to work hard.

Your idea of a climate plan is about as sound as the Oilers "Team game"

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by StickMan

I don't think you understand the carbon tax, you somehow feel virtuous paying it like you are helping, but in reality you are just paying another tax so Trudeau can waste the money.

What do you see as the end result of the carbon tax? You see less vehicle and home pollution in Canada ONLY? Do you see the replacement form of energy being completely green? Then what? You've helped prevent about 0.001% of global emissions? And as result everyone in Canada is poor and struggling as inflation continues to skyrocket and global emissions continue to increase year over year? Carbon tax is not a climate plan, it won't make any noticable difference reducing global emissions, if you think otherwise you are delusional. Trudeau is a selfish idiot, nothing he does is in the best interest of anyone but Trudeau.

You don't appear to be a serious person to have a discussion with.

[StickMan]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You don't appear to be a serious person to have a discussion with.

You are the most closed minded person on this forum, I don't consider what you contribute useful, I can predict what you will respond to any post, I just have to ask myself "what would Trudeau say". Do you have anything bad to say about Trudeau's carbon tax? Is Canada doing a great job on climate change? You are satisfied with our contribution?