You Know What Really Grinds My Gears? Now with 3x more gears...

[Shazam]

Parkade at save-on has lots of spaces.

[GGG]

Sounds great #### cars.

You have just made accessing 17th avenue by a means other than cars safer and better.

In most of these cool examples they have prioritized people over the car.

[Roughneck]

This is the project being talked about?

https://www.calgary.ca/planning/tran...irect=/1415ave

14th Ave will lose the painted cycle lane, goes back to two-way vehicle traffic, retains parking on the north and south sides.

15th Ave will remain one-way, lose parking on the north-side to accommodate a two-way protected wheeling lane (newer term for cycle lanes, since you can do more than just cycle in them)

Parking lost is ~170 spaces.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by GGG

Sounds great #### cars.

You have just made accessing 17th avenue by a means other than cars after and better.

In most of these cool examples they have prioritized people over the car.

I am fully on board with a lot more pedestrian walkways and less car crowded inner city districts. My gear grinder isn't even an anti bike lane thing, I am not opposed to them but I don't like when it's done in a weird way like this project is. People live and work in that area and they rely on parking for themselves and their work and their clients.

Calgary and inner city Calgary lacks vibrancy. It lacks action and the people who argue that, have not really traveled anywhere else fun.

I grew up in the Beltline my entire life with property and a business there. The area lacks vibrancy but it also lacks transit options for speedy entrance/exit. Someone who lives around say Chinook Mall may need 40+ minutes on train/bus to get there for a drink or dinner. Someone further south may need 90 minutes. This is only one way and not a return.

It's the opposite version of what we should be doing. Calgary is cutting transit service on weekends for budget reasons but then making travel to the most unique areas harder. Calgary is a very boring but also very corporate city where chain's really thrive in the burbs.

[GGG]

The areas (and I am open to you listing one that I am wrong on) are not vibrant because of car access. They are vibrant because people live within the area. In fact most of these places are far more anti-traffic than Calgary is.

The suburbs have ample parking everywhere and are the opposite of vibrant because of the lack of density for the service of people and cars. Parking is not the reason people don’t frequent these areas.

[Roughneck]

A good step towards improving vibrancy would be to close off 17th Ave to vehicles altogether on evenings and weekends.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I am fully on board with a lot more pedestrian walkways and less car crowded inner city districts. My gear grinder isn't even an anti bike lane thing, I am not opposed to them but I don't like when it's done in a weird way like this project is. People live and work in that area and they rely on parking for themselves and their work and their clients.

Calgary and inner city Calgary lacks vibrancy. It lacks action and the people who argue that, have not really traveled anywhere else fun.

I grew up in the Beltline my entire life with property and a business there. The area lacks vibrancy but it also lacks transit options for speedy entrance/exit. Someone who lives around say Chinook Mall may need 40+ minutes on train/bus to get there for a drink or dinner. Someone further south may need 90 minutes. This is only one way and not a return.

It's the opposite version of what we should be doing. Calgary is cutting transit service on weekends for budget reasons but then making travel to the most unique areas harder. Calgary is a very boring but also very corporate city where chain's really thrive in the burbs.

You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by curves2000

Sometimes the City of Calgary's infrastructure policy is beyond stupid and getting stupider. You see this with various projects currently happening in the Beltline, Marda Loop and others.

They are currently reducing parking on 1 side of the street and installing separated bike lanes on 14th & 15th Ave SW from 14 Street to Macleod Trail. We are talking about hundreds if not a 1000+ parking stalls. I don't have an issue with bike lanes when done properly but do we need them on both avenues? Can we minimize parking disruptions for visitors, businesses and residence?

Districts like 17th Ave SW are destination areas for people within the city but it's important for people to have actual dedicated parking spaces somewhere. You minimize the searching for parking. There are SO many cool examples all over the world where you can have walkability, cycling options, closed to car traffic while also allowing visitors, businesses and residences the ability move around easily and flourish. We get these weird designs here.

I don't now what you are talking about. 17th ave is a pretty happening place most of the day, and especially at night - of course all weather dependent. Last night alone, it was packed from 3pm until after midnight.

For a million person metropolitan with almost zero barriers to sprawl, 17th ave is pretty high up there compared to other cities of similar character and size.

To compare, go to white ave in edmonton. Its as wide as a 4 lane, parking and parking lots everywhere and its a complete deadzone. That place sucks.

Also, while 17 is a destination (and should be) as a resident living there, i would definitely rather have less cars. A couple years ago, 17th was closed down due to construction and it was probably the busiest its been as it was so quiet

[troutman]

Downtown and beltline was a graveyard after 5 pm in the 70s and 80s.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Cappy

I don't now what you are talking about. 17th ave is a pretty happening place most of the day, and especially at night - of course all weather dependent. Last night alone, it was packed from 3pm until after midnight.

For a million person metropolitan with almost zero barriers to sprawl, 17th ave is pretty high up there compared to other cities of similar character and size.

To compare, go to white ave in edmonton. Its as wide as a 4 lane, parking and parking lots everywhere and its a complete deadzone. That place sucks.

Also, while 17 is a destination (and should be) as a resident living there, i would definitely rather have less cars. A couple years ago, 17th was closed down due to construction and it was probably the busiest its been as it was so quiet

Sometimes I wonder if people who constantly say that downtown is dead after 5 PM ever actually come down here. I know 17th Ave is technically belt line and would be more considered downtown adjacent but as you said it’s definitely the top destination in the city center.

But it’s not just 17th Ave. 8th ave is a sea of people. 11th and 12th Ave can be quite busy. 10th Ave too. 4th st basically all long from downtown to 25th ave. 1st is busy from downtown all they way to around 14th ave.

I don’t spend much time on the north end of downtown but once Eau Claire is revitalized it could once again be a focal point. But Kensington and Prince’s Island Park remain busy.

Even sixth Avenue has some places between fourth and eighth that attract a fair number of people.

So really we’re talking about a fairly small part of downtown that becomes a real dead zone.

And you know what almost all of these places have in common? A ton of ####ing parking everywhere. Not always street parking but there are no shortage of relatively inexpensive paid lots. But you don’t always need parking because almost all of the hotspots are within a few blocks of the train.

There’s this segment of people who live in the suburbs who demand that despite the fact that they chose to go live way in the ####ing boonies, that the city should somehow make their commute downtown to enjoy the amenities completely car centric. Newsflash you chose to live out there. The rest of us that live nearby have absolutely no problem getting around. I can get anywhere in the city centre with a quick walk, train ride or Uber. But if you live in Cranston and expect to go downtown for dinner and get there in 15 minutes with a prime parking spot right outside the building that’s a you problem. God forbid people have to park five blocks away and walk to where they’re going.

Going back to 17th Ave. its biggest problem is that it turns into a ####ing parking lot because there is too much vehicle traffic. Webstbound 17th is regularly bumper to bumper from 5pm to midnight from 2nd st all the way to 8th st. Would it be better if there were more accessible non-single vehicle methods to get down there? Absolutely. But I don’t think we’re gonna fundamentally change North American car culture overnight.

[Fuzz]

What's probably missing is an E/w route a couple blocks south of 17th, which would allow 17th to lose it's necessity as a car route. North there are several, from 12,11,10,9, 6, 5, 4...


Geography makes it not easy, but it would have been better if it had been done decades ago.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What's probably missing is an E/w route a couple blocks south of 17th, which would allow 17th to lose it's necessity as a car route. North there are several, from 12,11,10,9, 6, 5, 4...

Geography makes it not easy, but it would have been better if it had been done decades ago.

Immediately south of 17 Avenue is a residential neighbourhood. 17 Ave SW has long been the E-W corridor.

I say what the city has been doing is working and to keep doing it: build out the patios to extend into the parked car lane so that you only have E-W moving traffic and minimal parking on 17 Ave itself, just extend it to more places. Doesn’t break the fact that it is an E-W corridor, but makes 17 Ave better in the summer when everyone wants to be there.

[Fuzz]

Ya, the neighborhood, river and hill in the west all make it not really an option. Just ideally. I guess ideally something like 14th Ave would have always been a walking street with bars and shops serviced by 17th and 12/11. Someone ####ed that up.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.

Am I really wrong? At first I thought maybe I was out to lunch but a quick glance of taking transit at 3:45 PM on a great day to head down to the middle of 17th Ave shows that the quickest option for transit is 36 minutes and the longest at 49 minutes from Chinook.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/hgrrrDapVRqLwMDM9 One could argue that it's actually the slowest option as walking could be done in probably be done quicker than the Google time.

Another option of literally going from LRT to middle of 17th option in the further south it's 45-60 minutes if all goes well.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/3CpwhjWzxmbJHSdn9

Gather spots and locations no matter what require quick, fast and efficient transit, parking availability for those with a car or meeting people and also require vibrancy. Downtown Calgary is not a vibrant area for a variety of reasons.

People sometimes defend weird things here without actually thinking. If Calgary transit is taking a long time to get you somewhere central locally within 5-10 km's, people will drive as that is the best option. Those that drive require parking infrastructure.

This isn't an anti bike lane post, this is a weird city policy post. Shut down 17th Ave to full auto traffic 1000% year round. Absolutely nothing wrong with that and turn 15th Ave into the main E/W route with zero parking for cars. Might be some serious blow back from residents and business in the area.

The city and the residents are constantly complaining about noise in the summer on 17th from cars. Shut it down and make it 100% car free. The flip side of it though is all the car infrastructure that you need. Parking, Uber/Taxi/Skip drivers and the issues associated with that.

I have traveled enough and spent enough time in places with very vibrant centers in very small cities. You need vibrancy, walkability and infrastructure for cars/transit and transportation. Getting people in and out.

I just don't see how adding 2 separate bike lanes and losing parking for businesses and local's is the smartest way. Add 1 sure, but is 2 required? What problem is it solving?

[Shazam]

Chinook you'd take the c-train and then walk from 8th ave to 17th ave - this is a 15-20 min walk, I've done it multiple times - or take a bus from the DCD.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Immediately south of 17 Avenue is a residential neighbourhood. 17 Ave SW has long been the E-W corridor.

I say what the city has been doing is working and to keep doing it: build out the patios to extend into the parked car lane so that you only have E-W moving traffic and minimal parking on 17 Ave itself, just extend it to more places. Doesn’t break the fact that it is an E-W corridor, but makes 17 Ave better in the summer when everyone wants to be there.

Only certain parts of 17 Ave SW are "busy". There's plenty of parking near 10 St and near 4 St. There's also plenty of surface parking lots.

I was at Trolley 5 last Sat, it was a ####ing zoo all night, I still found parking in, oh, five seconds?

This ain't Montreal.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Sometimes I wonder if people who constantly say that downtown is dead after 5 PM ever actually come down here. I know 17th Ave is technically belt line and would be more considered downtown adjacent but as you said it’s definitely the top destination in the city center.

Internet posters consider "downtown" to be the Downtown Commercial District. Regular people consider "downtown" to be the area starting in Kensington bounded by Crowchild Tr on the west and the zoo on the east, and 17 Ave on the south.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I just don't see how adding 2 separate bike lanes and losing parking for businesses and local's is the smartest way. Add 1 sure, but is 2 required? What problem is it solving?

2 lanes solves the problem of not forcing one person to veer into vehicle lanes to avoid somebody traveling in the same lane in the opposite direction.

[Shazam]

Bike lanes always have one in each direction. Never seen them done any other way.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Only certain parts of 17 Ave SW are "busy". There's plenty of parking near 10 St and near 4 St. There's also plenty of surface parking lots.

I was at Trolley 5 last Sat, it was a ####ing zoo all night, I still found parking in, oh, five seconds?

This ain't Montreal.

Could have just kept Electric Avenue too, I suppose.