I think one of the common things people assume when they read this thread, is that we are arguing FOR aliens.
Personally - I'm not at all. I think that's one of the least likely scenarios.
I am intruiged by this mystery, whatever that may be. Either there is something flying around in our skies and there is a massive cover up, or there are lies upon lies upon lies being told, and for what reason?
That's what I meant when I said this is so much deeper than the alien thing. I think a lot of people like to point to that as to why this is ridiculous and shouldn't even be talked about.
Throw the aliens out the window completely. there is still plenty here to unpack.
I don’t think you can simultaneously believe Grusch and throw aliens out the window.
His testimony, for better or worse, pretty much revolves around aliens.
He’s either telling the truth and the answer is aliens, or he’s not and at that point nothing he says is reliable.
The Following User Says Thank You to PepsiFree For This Useful Post:
I don’t think you can simultaneously believe Grusch and throw aliens out the window.
His testimony, for better or worse, pretty much revolves around aliens.
He’s either telling the truth and the answer is aliens, or he’s not and at that point nothing he says is reliable.
Personally - I think Grusch believes he's telling the truth.
However I absolutely could buy into him being fed disinfo, would not shock me.
But then why? any answers we get are going to create more questions. Its why I am so fascinated by this. I could care less if its aliens (though that would be fascinating in and of itself). I'm just baffled by what is going on, in totality.
The Following User Says Thank You to Jiggy_12 For This Useful Post:
Personally - I think Grusch believes he's telling the truth.
However I absolutely could buy into him being fed disinfo, would not shock me.
But then why? any answers we get are going to create more questions. Its why I am so fascinated by this. I could care less if its aliens (though that would be fascinating in and of itself). I'm just baffled by what is going on, in totality.
I have some issues with Bob Lazar and his credibility, but one thing he said that makes sense is he said is that they would purposely feed people false information so that if something leaks, they would know who they can trace it back to.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
I don’t think you can simultaneously believe Grusch and throw aliens out the window.
His testimony, for better or worse, pretty much revolves around aliens.
He’s either telling the truth and the answer is aliens, or he’s not and at that point nothing he says is reliable.
I was thinking of assuming everyone is telling the truth then are aliens the most likely outcome?
I still think it’s probably not the most likely as that still requires all of the challenges of aliens finding us that we have discussed previously. So what are the likelier options.
If you had a secret program doing some fairly illegal research that would be very problematic if it came out what would be the best way to hide it. First you compartmentalize and make it need to now so no one gets to find out about it using your standard security measures. But then so that you don’t get ethical objections from researchers you tell them it is found NHIs they are looking at. This also makes it so if any info ever does come out they are looked at as crackpots.
Same with the reverse engineering. Rather than tell the people working on these problems that we developed this tech you instead tell them the starting point is reverse engineered from space craft. This keeping whatever key breakthroughs away from peoples eyes and again making these people seem non credible when they release the information.
So if this starts to come out of the Scifs that we can’t talk about it anymore because of national security I think these are the types of possibilities of what actually happens.
So if Grusch is telling the truth I think a clandestine program of US based research using NHIs as a cover up is more likely than NHIs themselves.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to GGG For This Useful Post:
This video has already been debunked back in this thread. Not only is it incorrect in the assumptions of how the gimbal cameras work it also ignores that there were multiple eye witnesses to the craft (two F-18 crews on intercept) and the plethora of electronic and radar sensor data from multiple ships.
Somehow I missed this, probably got hidden in your long winded novel type post
But please show the post where it was debunked, I can't find it.
Location: In a land without pants, or war, or want. But mostly we care about the pants.
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGG
So if Grusch is telling the truth I think a clandestine program of US based research using NHIs as a cover up is more likely than NHIs themselves.
Yeah, disinformation is likely at the root of many of the American-based UFO reports, and why such reports are disproportionately American. It's easier to hide something when people are focused on looking for evidence of something else, especially when the latter doesn't exist to end the search.
__________________
Better educated sadness than oblivious joy.
Are the UAP sightings aliens here on Earth? Neil deGrasse Tyson and comedian co-host Paul Mecurio discuss the congressional hearings on unidentified anomalous phenomena (UAP) with astrophysicist and chair of NASA’s UAP independent study team, David Spergel.
Learn about the UAP hearings, what the goals are, and what NASA can contribute to our understanding of these phenomena. What is NASA’s attitude on UAPs? What sort of institutionalized thinking needs to be overcome? Find out what an “artifact” is and why so many UAP sightings are classified. Are conspiracy theorists right that the government is hiding something?
Why are people afraid to report UAP sightings? How can we reduce the stigma around reporting UAPs? We discuss China’s spy balloon and the discovery of lightning sprites. Why aren’t UAP sightings more common? Is there a reason why mostly the military sees them? Learn about examples of unidentified things in the sky that turned into scientific discovery.
What makes something anomalous? We discuss the difference in culture between the military and science community and what changes are needed in both. We think of ways for ordinary citizens to collect UAP data and the likelihood of even recognizing an alien spacecraft. Plus, what could a UAP be besides weather balloons and aliens?
While having PTSD might not discredit Grusch, there’s absolutely no way it would make him more credible. Like, in what world would that make sense to anyone?
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to PepsiFree For This Useful Post:
Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
Exp:
Oregon’s extraterrestrial history: The 1950 Trent UFO sighting
Quote:
As the story goes, on May 11, 1950, Evelyn Trent was feeding the chickens and rabbits on her farm just outside of McMinnville when she looked up to the sky and saw the disc-shaped object floating in the sky.
She quickly ran back to the farmhouse, yelling for her husband, Paul Trent, to get their camera.
When the pair emerged from their house, camera in hand, they said the disc could still be seen in the sky moving west. That is when Paul raised the camera and took the now infamous photos.
Quote:
According to the UFO Fest’s website, it took another month for Paul to develop the photos and even longer to share them with anyone, because he was worried about exposing a government experiment or secret project.
Finally, Paul shared the photos with his friend Frank Wortman who then went on to share the story with the local newspaper, the Telephone Register.
Quote:
Eventually, the media attention settled down, but that didn’t stop investigators from the Air Force and Federal Bureau of Investigation from allegedly looking into the situation and later sharing that they couldn’t find anything to convince them that the photos were fake.
Later in the 1960s, The Condon Committee, a U.S. Air Force-funded UFO research project based at the University of Colorado and led by physicist Edward U. Condon, also looked into the sighting.
The original negatives that Paul had developed in 1950 had disappeared sometime during the original media frenzy, allegedly misplaced by the New York television program “We The People,” however it was during Condon’s investigation that the negatives reappeared.
The Condon Committee also went on to state that there was nothing leading them to believe that the photos were fake.
There is no way to know for sure if the UFO sighting was real or a hoax, but those negatives have still never been debunked to this day.
Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
Exp:
The Condon Report on McMinnville UFO
Quote:
Finally, in 1965, the Air Force found a legitimate university with a well-credentialed physicist who would be willing to undertake a thorough study of the matter: Dr. Edward Condon of the University of Colorado.
Quote:
Condon’s report was released in 1968, and pretty much firmly established UFOlogy as a “border science,” well outside the mainstream. Of course, UFO enthusiasts countered that Condon had had strong confirmation bias to contend with — if he had ended up concluding that UFOs were real, they claimed, his academic reputation would have been ruined. So, he had a strong incentive to minimize the evidence in favor and maximize the evidence against. They professed themselves unsurprised when he concluded that there was insufficient evidence to consider UFOs as a reasonable possibility.
Even so, Condon’s report admitted that it was unable to falsify the Trent photographs, or find damaging inconsistency in the story they’d told in the countless interviews they’d given in the year or two after their sighting.
“This is one of the few UFO reports in which all factors investigated, geometric, psychological, and physical, appear to be consistent with the assertion that an extraordinary flying object, silvery, metallic, disk-shaped, tens of meters in diameter, and evidently artificial, flew within sight of two witnesses,” the report noted.
However, it did leave open the possibility that the object had been a model suspended from an overhead line one or two dozen feet from the camera — a theory that continues to resonate with skeptics today.
Quote:
The Trents both died in the late 1990s, and both insisted until the end that the photos were legitimate. And, even today, amateur analysts are disagreeing about whether they were lying. The conclusions these analysts have reached, so far, have been very predictable: confirmed skeptics conclude definitively that the whole thing was a hoax, and confirmed UFO believers assert positively that the photos were demonstrably real.
All the intense scrutiny over the years has successfully proven only one thing: that the photos are extraordinarily resistant to being definitively debunked — or, for that matter, confirmed.
Location: In a land without pants, or war, or want. But mostly we care about the pants.
Exp:
Quote:
Grusch's repeated claims during his Congressional testimony that he didn't have the needed security clearances to discuss the specifics of these cases did not seem to hinder him from doing so a few weeks before when he went on NewsNation, a fledgling cable TV news network which spent the first half of 2023 all-in on UFO coverage, presumably to boost their ratings and become a bigger player.
