Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by troutman

Bettman would never allow them to leave without giving a first opportunity to local buyers to buy the team.

And the Shaw family has 20 billion or so to blow on a luxury item

[GioforPM]

The Toyota Centre may be almost 20. But it would be the 6th newest building in the NHL, and a darn sight newer than the 1983 Saddledome, which is the oldest but for MSG, and 10 years older then the next oldest. And Fertitta constantly talks about the NHL.

A relocation fee is a hefty consideration but it’s a lot less than an expansion fee. So the issue is purchase price + relocation fee versus expansion fee + startup costs/no team infrastructure etc. Buying an existing team has some advantages. The main thing going for Calgary is that there are other, perhaps better, acquisition targets. AZ. Fla. Ott.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

RCR was in CCAA. But that doesn’t mean either RCR, nor the government officials, not the other creditors were without options.

You seem to think tough negotiation is about winning and losing. It’s not. Murray presses any advantage but he also seeks solutions to problems. He ended up selling a bunch of RCR properties back to Locke, so he made money at both ends.

I haven’t seen anyone suggest Edwards will run circles around the city. I’ve seen people suggest, rightly so, that he is tough in negotiations.

Fair enough, i wasn't putting that on you, but you mentioned seeing him in action, which is why i thought i would pick your brain a bit. Also why i asked for his negotiating style.

Of course being a good negotiator isn't about winning and losing, but many people think it is. Some of the worst negotiators i have ever dealt with are the ones people think are good - bulldogs, loud, and aggressive. I didnt assume Edwards is like that

I appreciate the insight!

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Sigh.

Murray relocating the Flanes would cost $150-200M. Are they getting a deal that much better somewhere else and also be as lucrative a market as Calgary?

No.

HOU is out. Toyota centre is already 18 years old and they aren’t getting sweetheart terms as a tenant.

QUE has ownership that wants to buy.

No other city comes close to CGY as a market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This.

Yes Calgary would eventually lose the Flames without a new arena deal without public subsidy. But all these alarmist posts about Houston and Portland et al are just entirely premature and not rooted in fact.

The City is not in a bad negotiating position.

[Canadianman]

I'd be pretty happy if Calgary started the trend of municipalities telling private interests to fund their own infrastructure.


It is pretty clear that the goal of professional sports is to socialize the cost but privatize the profits.


If they can't fund their own infrastructure, then they aren't a valid business and deserve to go bankrupt.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Now that was about 18 months ago, but why would he still not want a second franchise in the same arena?
.

LOL.

Old sound byte from a guy that talks all the time. If Fertitta was in the market for a team, we'd be watching the Houston Coyotes right now. He's not sitting around waiting for the Calgary arena deal to fall apart.

I'm shocked at how many people have assumed that Edwards is ready to sell the team.

[dammage79]

Looks to me like maybe the Flames are willing to kick in the extra money but want some concessions from the other side.

Just from reading the news releases from the last two days it looks like that.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Old sound byte from a guy that talks all the time. If Fertitta was in the market for a team, we'd be watching the Houston Coyotes right now. He's not sitting around waiting for the Calgary arena deal to fall apart.

I'm shocked at how many people have assumed that Edwards is ready to sell the team.

Well...you are just plain incorrect.

"Old" quote or not, the guy has been talking about this since he purchased the Rockets. These things take time...18 months is nothing. Seattle was in discussion for years before being awarded the franchise.

And no he is not "sitting around waiting for the Calgary arena deal to fall apart." No one said he was...not sure where that trope comes from.

What was actually said and remains completely true is that IF the arena deal falls through, the threat of relocation is very real. It is also very much true there are already landing spot(s) available should that be the road that is chosen.

Again, we are a long ways from that, at this point. That does not preclude it from being an option though.

Its like some are just ignoring this because they dont want it to be real.

Bizarre.

[Senator Clay Davis]

You know the people who talk about how the threat of moving is real always seem to skip over how difficult it would be. Basically acting like if the arena falls through they can move quickly, that it would be smooth sailing. There are legal, political, financial complications to this, involving multiple entities that aren't even the direct seller or buyer. No one ignores the possibility of moving being out there, but it's not going to be easy at all.

[transplant99]

Yeah, you are right pro sports teams rarely move. 33 times in the last 50 years among the big 4 NA leagues.

Im unaware of any "legal" obstacles or political for that matter. Doesn't mean they don't exist, but have heard/read nothing along those lines.

The one giant thing would be getting the BoG to approve it. Past that, nothing could stop them if that is the chosen path. Not sure it would actually come to that, but to suggest it simply wouldnt happen "because" is just dumb.

You cant make an owner keep his club somewhere he doesnt want to be. Ask Art Modell.

I do believe the NHL charter means a local buyer would have to be sought out first. Not to sure anyone would be willing to dole out the kind of money necessary to purchase the club without having a new arena though. So you are back to square one.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Now that was about 18 months ago, but why would he still not want a second franchise in the same arena?
.

LOL.

Have you not been paying any attention to his financial straights? This guy got rich from restaurants. You think that's been a success over the last year? He tore apart his NBA franchise (a far more valuable property) for money savings.

Lol on you buddy, you're 18 months behind and the world has changed dramatically in the last year.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...t-on-all-sides This is from May last year and things have gotten way worse for him since. Buddy aint buying anything for a while.

[Monahammer]

Beyond that, the league itself has taken an enormous image and revenue hit in the last year. This is the worst possible time for any owner to consider selling their franchise- a whole lost year of gate revenue, the admission by the league that many franchises can't even float without gate revenue, and fans that just experienced a reasonable product without having to shell out gate revenue for a year. They are not in a high value situation right now.

https://www.tsn.ca/radio/ottawa-1200...ands-1.1551032

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...emic-1.5591171

No one is looking to buy a sports franchise today.

[Monahammer]

IMO Transplant, it is you who has arguments not rooted in the facts of the day. You're blinded by your fear of losing the team- these are just the now totally empty threats of an entitled billionaire trying to squeeze us all for a dime. The team has lost leverage since this deal was inked.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Well...you are just plain incorrect.

"Old" quote or not, the guy has been talking about this since he purchased the Rockets. These things take time...18 months is nothing. Seattle was in discussion for years before being awarded the franchise.

And no he is not "sitting around waiting for the Calgary arena deal to fall apart." No one said he was...not sure where that trope comes from.

What was actually said and remains completely true is that IF the arena deal falls through, the threat of relocation is very real. It is also very much true there are already landing spot(s) available should that be the road that is chosen.

Again, we are a long ways from that, at this point. That does not preclude it from being an option though.

Its like some are just ignoring this because they dont want it to be real.

Bizarre.

You are going to have to show me more than an old sound byte that you googled to conclude he has been talking about buying an NHL team "since he bought the Rockets".

What is bizarre to me is that someone from the city leaks information and people start bringing up Portland and Houston.

I believe it was you claiming that "cities were offering sweetheart deals right now". Who are these cities and what are they offering?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Have you not been paying any attention to his financial straights? This guy got rich from restaurants. You think that's been a success over the last year? He tore apart his NBA franchise (a far more valuable property) for money savings.

Lol on you buddy, you're 18 months behind and the world has changed dramatically in the last year.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...t-on-all-sides This is from May last year and thinks have gotten way worse for him since. Buddy aint buying anything for a while.

Yeah you really have him pegged...he is broke.

This happened 2 months ago...

Landry’s is going public again.

The Houston-based collection of casual and upscale restaurants, along with Golden Nugget casinos, has agreed to merge with the blank-check company Fast Acquisition in a deal that will value the company at $6.6 billion.

Institutional investors have agreed to invest $1.2 billion in the company at closing, the companies announced.

Once the deal is complete, Landry’s owner Tilman Fertitta will be the controlling shareholder of the company and will own 60% interest in a publicly-traded Landry’s/Golden Nugget. The companies said they don’t anticipate any changes in management as a result of the deal.

That is just his main company.....he has a 4 billion dollar share.

Never mind the rest of his holdings.

But you know...carry on.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

No one is looking to buy a sports franchise today.

I don’t know what you’re thinking with this, or where you get this train of thought.

You’re acting as if the market hasn’t been booming. You’re acting as if USA isn’t popping off what? 4 million vaccines a day?

If the Flames went up for sale, they would sell. If the city of Calgary backs out of this deal, the Flames will leave.

The NHL’s commitment to locations like Arizona show what type of markets they want their teams in. They want massive populations.

Alberta having two teams is bizarre given our population, and on top of that I believe the Flames have the lowest draw from a ratings perspective in all of Canada.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yeah, you are right pro sports teams rarely move. 33 times in the last 50 years among the big 4 NA leagues.

Im unaware of any "legal" obstacles or political for that matter. Doesn't mean they don't exist, but have heard/read nothing along those lines.

The one giant thing would be getting the BoG to approve it. Past that, nothing could stop them if that is the chosen path. Not sure it would actually come to that, but to suggest it simply wouldnt happen "because" is just dumb.

You cant make an owner keep his club somewhere he doesnt want to be. Ask Art Modell.

I do believe the NHL charter means a local buyer would have to be sought out first. Not to sure anyone would be willing to dole out the kind of money necessary to purchase the club without having a new arena though. So you are back to square one.

You can't compare the NHL and the NFL. It's time for a deep breath.

Calgary is a pretty good market for the NHL. The Canadian TV rights deal is pretty clear evidence of that, along with the local support the club receives.

There is no imminent sale of the team. Cities aren't offering Edwards some sweetheart deal to move. There is a very small number of situations in the US where you have an owner ready to acquire a team and Flames aren't first on the list.

IMO better to focus on the details of the Calgary arena deal and see who is able to extract a little better deal for themselves if that is in fact, what's happening.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

You are going to have to show me more than an old sound byte that you googled to conclude he has been talking about buying an NHL team "since he bought the Rockets".

What is bizarre to me is that someone from the city leaks information and people start bringing up Portland and Houston.

I believe it was you claiming that "cities were offering sweetheart deals right now". Who are these cities and what are they offering?

To be honest i didn't "need" to google a sound bite. It has been out there for quite a while what he has been planning for long term.

Also he has been talking about getting the NHL since he acquired the Rockets...3 whole seasons ago.

This is how it was explained to me...(this was also at least a year and a half ago so maybe covid has changed it though im not sure why that would be)

The "Rockets" run the Toyota Center in essence. Any revenue generated within is theirs. So any tenant they bring in, makes them money from every event that happens. Concerts and whatnot as well.

41 nights of NHL hockey a year is nothing to sneeze at as long as they cover expenses on the other side since he would be responsible for both.

So IF Fertitta was to get an NHL team, they immediately have a place to play without getting charged a penny for rent. He/they get all ticket sales, concessions, parking, advertising etc revenue as well.

Portland i have no idea about and have no idea what the leagues appetite is to go there. Houston though? Yeah they would love to get there in the right scenario. 4th largest TV market in the entire country.

One more time though...its a long way off from even being anything to worry wbout but it is most certainly out there.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Yeah you really have him pegged...he is broke.

This happened 2 months ago...



That is just his main company.....he has a 4 billion dollar share.

Never mind the rest of his holdings.

But you know...carry on.

So his chunk of value in his own company has fallen by a billion dollars in the last year and he had to sell part of it to stay afloat?

That's what I just read there. Are you falling for a healthy PR spin?

The company he merged with is called fast acquisition for god sakes lol this is the move of a desperate private owner.

[PepsiFree]

This conversation seems pointless.

"The team isn't likely moving, and if they do, it's no time soon."
"Yeah, but they might EVENTUALLY move! It's POSSIBLE! Why is everyone ignoring the facts of the possibility!"

Y'all are arguing the same thing using different words. One poster just seems really set on making sure everyone knows just how real the far-off possibility is should literally everything stopping a relocation not happen. Great. Glad we cleared it up. But go on if you must.