[News] CalgaryNEXT Announcement. New arena details emerge.

[Stay Golden]

Listening to KKing on 960 this morning and his answers just reinforces my resentment towards him.
Great line of questions by 960 i thought they didn’t pull back in the interview.

[DFO]

My main issue with the plan is the city backed CRL. The 'build and they will come' notion is clumsy. For the CRL to fly there has to be a significant amount of commercial development lined up and built right on the heels of the arena complex. But what are the chances a pile of commercial development dollars are going to materialize as we get further into a recession? The city has a glut of downtown office space and there seems to be piles of condo towers already going up elsewhere around the core. Is there need for more of those types of developments in the West Village any time soon?

It's concerning that was no talk of a development anchor to justify the CRL. The East Village has the Bow and a pile of residential on the go. Edmonton has some towers going up in conjunction to the arena. Seems a little too risky for the city to be left holding the bag if the tax revenue never materializes.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by T@T

Must be very close if it's on the website.

I'm not worked up about it at all, I'm disappointed after all this time they couldn't design something with a bit of "WOW" in it and with the roadways that area is simply too small for multi arenas.

Some people like big women...I don't, some people like this design...I don't.

It isn't up to the Flames to move roadways, that is up to the city planners. If the city wants roadways moved that will be for them to draw up and come back at the Flames with.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by DFO

My main issue with the plan is the city backed CRL. The 'build and they will come' notion is clumsy. For the CRL to fly there has to be a significant amount of commercial development lined up and built right on the heels of the arena complex. But what are the chances a pile of commercial development dollars are going to materialize as we get further into a recession? The city has a glut of downtown office space and there seems to be piles of condo towers already going up elsewhere around the core. Is there need for more of those types of developments in the West Village any time soon?

It's concerning that was no talk of a development anchor to justify the CRL. The East Village has the Bow and a pile of residential on the go. Edmonton has some towers going up in conjunction to the arena. Seems a little too risky for the city to be left holding the bag if the tax revenue never materializes.

But not by coincidence.
It is being built, and as a result, 'they came'.
The debate is really whether that's actually 'new money' that would otherwise not exist, instead of of those projects simply being located elsewhere.
That's the part that is a stretch.

[Buster]

Originally Posted by DFO

My main issue with the plan is the city backed CRL. The 'build and they will come' notion is clumsy. For the CRL to fly there has to be a significant amount of commercial development lined up and built right on the heels of the arena complex. But what are the chances a pile of commercial development dollars are going to materialize as we get further into a recession? The city has a glut of downtown office space and there seems to be piles of condo towers already going up elsewhere around the core. Is there need for more of those types of developments in the West Village any time soon?

It's concerning that was no talk of a development anchor to justify the CRL. The East Village has the Bow and a pile of residential on the go. Edmonton has some towers going up in conjunction to the arena. Seems a little too risky for the city to be left holding the bag if the tax revenue never materializes.

Dont be fooled. A CRL is just a tax on general revenue with an extra step added in to assuage the masses who don't think too deeply on the economics of it.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

But not by coincidence.
It is being built, and as a result, 'they came'.
The debate is really whether that's actually 'new money' that would otherwise not exist, instead of of those projects simply being located elsewhere.
That's the part that is a stretch.

To me, that last part is a serious cause for concern.

You don't want the west village to be drawing tax and consumer dollars away from the East Village until the east village has had a chance to fully establish itself.

It's not like a new arena will have people flying in from Vancouver to go to a Pearl Jam concert, so it's really more of a case of consumer spending that would be more spread out in the city being funneled into the west village area. Good for the West Village, bad for everywhere else.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Buster

Dont be fooled. A CRL is just a tax on general revenue with an extra step added in to assuage the masses who don't think too deeply on the economics of it.

It's ironic when a person believes that those who have a different view than them are simple-minded, particularly on complex issues. Because that is a very simple-minded perspective to take.

The condescending tone from anti-arena advocates in here is getting quite tiresome.

[bax]

Originally Posted by heep223

It's ironic when a person believes that those who have a different view than them are simple-minded, particularly on complex issues. Because that is a very simple-minded perspective to take.

The condescending tone from anti-arena advocates in here is getting quite tiresome.

Is it ever. Almost makes this thread unreadable

[Fuzz]

Red: eastbound
green: westbound
blue: pedestrian
gray: buildings

Figured I'd fix a little bit of Crowchild. I'm sure this isn't the best road design, but just showing something could be done by adding an extra lane to the bridge. This fixes the Memorial crossover pain. Traffic circle may need work, that whole area is a bit of a cluster*, but does maintain the same access as before. Primarily I wanted to get the big roads out of the way and open grand pedestrian passageways. Bow speed limits may need to be reduced for safety given there may be lots of traffic at games.

Not sure if the Pumphouse Theatre was staying, so I assumed it was. If it goes, that opens more space to maybe move the arena further west.

The biggest drawback is no direct transit access to the arena. Walking distance is about 500m. Current Saddledome is ~400m. I think it's worth the sacrifice.

An alternative for Bow Westbound would be to burry it, roughly following the pedestrian blue but I actually don't see a huge point to that unless eastbound is buried as well to kind of open up to Sunalta. Still have the railway though. And would be expensive.

Anyway, have at 'er. I'm sure there are vast improvements to be made, but I get the feeling I put more thought into this (an hour) than KK did into his....

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by T@T

Must be very close if it's on the website.

I'm not worked up about it at all, I'm disappointed after all this time they couldn't design something with a bit of "WOW" in it and with the roadways that area is simply too small for multi arenas.

Some people like big women...I don't, some people like this design...I don't.

Nothing has really been designed. Those pictures we saw were just renders of the general idea and nothing firm. I expect in a couple of years when final designs are decided on that there will be actual "WOW" designs for us to get excited about. Unfortunately the reality of these facilities is that we are still years away and this is just the owners officially beginning the process. I agree that I wasn't blown away from those renders but I'm also smart enough to reserve judgement for when I get to see the real designs they have settled on. The ones like you see right now in the Edmonton, Regina, and Quebec facilities and this project isn't close to being ready for that.

[Jordan!]

Should just blow up Westbrook Mall and build the arena there.

Is Westbrook still around? Many donairs were had there

[Hackey]

That's a southwest heritage site. You ain't touching it.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

Should just blow up Westbrook Mall and build the arena there.

Is Westbrook still around? Many donairs were had there

It is, and it's still a wasteland. The gentrification of the entire area doesn't seem to jive with the white trashiness of that dump.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Nothing has really been designed. Those pictures we saw were just renders of the general idea and nothing firm. I expect in a couple of years when final designs are decided on that there will be actual "WOW" designs for us to get excited about. Unfortunately the reality of these facilities is that we are still years away and this is just the owners officially beginning the process. I agree that I wasn't blown away from those renders but I'm also smart enough to reserve judgement for when I get to see the real designs they have settled on. The ones like you see right now in the Edmonton, Regina, and Quebec facilities and this project isn't close to being ready for that.

I think there was a kind of chain reaction of disappointment by fans caused by KK & CSE.

Firstly, it took for bloody ever to even announce that they would announce an arena. When did talks first start? 2006?

Then the announcement comes with many question marks about funding - understandable, but frustrating for folks who waited so long just to be told, wait some more until we figure this out. Why hasn't it been figured out already?!

The fans were promised to have their expectations blown away - but that's hardly the case. Many argue that the multi use stadium idea will not work out, and it's simply a compromise on all fronts.

After 7-8 years of waiting, there isn't even a decent rendering of one or two proposed arenas and stadiums?

It's been disappointment after disappointment for fans, leading the taxpayer to be pissy and underwhelmed, and most of CP too.

I think in a year or two we'll receive more concrete news, but it'll be news that people were expecting today.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Nothing has really been designed. Those pictures we saw were just renders of the general idea and nothing firm. I expect in a couple of years when final designs are decided on that there will be actual "WOW" designs for us to get excited about. Unfortunately the reality of these facilities is that we are still years away and this is just the owners officially beginning the process. I agree that I wasn't blown away from those renders but I'm also smart enough to reserve judgement for when I get to see the real designs they have settled on. The ones like you see right now in the Edmonton, Regina, and Quebec facilities and this project isn't close to being ready for that.

I'm wondering what, short of a NFL standard stadium, would wow some people here.

Anyway, it strikes me that there is a lot of complaining and handwringing at this point. No, it's not an advanced architecural and design model yet. It would be foolish at this stage to have had that work done without the concept winning approval. All development works that way.

The way I see it: Almost everyone agrees that a new arena and a new stadium were needed, and almost everyone agrees that it needed to be central (I don't call this downtown myself, just like I don't call anything east of City Hall or south of the tracks downtown). I doubt anyone seriously expected that no public funding would be sought, though there are always some who object to the very concept of any public funding (and always will).

So the only thing to me is whether this is the right location, and I think it's as good as they could do. Will there be issues, like traffic and cleanup? Sure, but there would be issues anywhere. There's no perfect traffic location and the cleanup would be done on any new use of that land, probably at taxpayer expense.

What will it look like? As several have said, probably different than the drawings (which I don't find offensive anyway). Lots of people didn't like the Saddledome design either. Will residential take off? I don't know, but I've been to several multi-sport entertainment areas (like the Diamondback/Suns area) and residential is not a huge factor there either. But it sure is nice.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Buster

Dont be fooled. A CRL is just a tax on general revenue with an extra step added in to assuage the masses who don't think too deeply on the economics of it.

Spot on. The city's revenue pot is it's revenue pot. Whether you redirect $240M from "just" the taxpayers in the CRL zone or $240M from the entire tax base, you're redirecting $240M of revenue out of the city's revenue pot.

Now, if the present value of advancing a higher West Village tax base up in time minus the present value of any lost potential tax base from development that gets shifted from elsewhere to the new west village exceeds $240M, then it's worth it. If it doesn't then it's not.

I'm not sure if it is but my gut tells me that it's not and that the CRL will end up being negative value for the city's revenue pot and therefore would be considered a handout of public funds.

[Strange Brew]

Thinking more about this and the idea is growing on me. If the city believes it needs a fieldhouse (still don't have a clear understanding of what that is) then it makes sense to also use as a new stadium for the Stamps. I love the CFL but a new stand alone football stadium doesn't sound like a great use of public money. I know other Canadian cities have done it but I have no issue with Calgary trying to be smarter.

Then I get stuck on whether this is the right setup and location for a fieldhouse whose primary purpose is amateur sports. I get the cost savings in sharing centralized facilities with the arena/event center but using the fiedlhouse whenever something is going on at the "event center" is going to be a royal pain, isn't it? Parking, congestion, accessibility all seem like issues. This arena is being built to hopefully host much more than just Flames games and so will hopefully be busy. 1500 parking spots doesn't seem like the solution to this issue.

[Bingo]

Going back to 2006 is a little unfair given the purchase of the Stampeders and the need to scrap that whole initial project. Since that date you have roughly 27 months of time, and in that I guess there's a point in why wait this long.

Not sure how far back in that 27 month timetable they arrived at West Village, but from this web site's understanding it has to be at least a year, and so they probably could have come forward last summer with the same news.

having said that I'm no expert, and I could see why you'd have to get architect's etc involved to see if you can build two buildings in that space that would suite the two team's needs ... imagine a 2014 announcement and then the egg on the face when they realized it couldn't be done?

So I'll give them some rope on timeline.

The design stuff ... King himself said he wished this week was about design pictures, and wow factor but that that would have to wait until the initial stages were ironed out.

Double speak? Possibly. But then wouldn't it be in the Flames best interests to bring th wow first and get everyone drooling about it forcing the city to ante up?

Sometimes I think people just look for dissention.

The two sports teams need new buildings, I'm fairly sure a city vote on that statement would have a big majority agreeing. Where they go etc was always going to cause people to love or hate the idea.

Glad it's finally out in the open.

[Robbob]

When talking about the CRL area, why not include the area where McMahon was as a net positive. That old stadium will for sure be torn down and open a lot of space for future development. If the University expands into have the land and then a high density residential/commercial area is built that is tax revenue immediately gained on prime land.

[YYC in LAX]

Let the rich get richer. Take my tax dollars, I really don't care. Build it. If they build it, I will cum. Love it all.