You totally ignored my point just so you could reiterate this talking point again.
I get it, Trump freaks you out, you don’t want to live if he’s Big P. But from the bottom of my heart, calm the #### down and listen to what people are saying.
If you’ve built “the right” into this evil monolith voting block, yet regardless of the real or imagined danger, you employ the exact same rhetoric and thinking that enables people like Trump and DeSantisand allows them to thrive.
This is not a game you can switch on and off. You argue you shouldn’t have any principles because “the other side” doesn’t. That’s not how principles work, you’re just justifying not having any. Whether you want to admit it or not, there are going to be a lot of good, principled people who for one reason or another vote Trump. It’s just the way it is. They’re not all evil crazy rednecks that want a fascist to kill all their enemies. Whether it’s differing political views, a differing sense of the “danger,” or just a lack of education, there’s a whole swath of people that will vote Trump that would, in fact, vote for someone a lot less crazy and a lot better for America.
So yeah, you should believe parties need to earn a vote. This isn’t controversial, unique, or something that you can just “pause” for one election. The fear mongering stuff just is not effective. And, at the end of the day, there’s very little you can do to convince someone how to vote, so you need to be happy with how you approach things. I’m not sure you realize it, but you are really good at projecting your own approach onto what you imagine as the very worst parts of the right wing.
As much as people like yourself don’t want to admit it, if Harris loses, it isn’t because of people who care about issues you don’t, or non-voters, or even Trump voters. It isn’t because she’s Black, or a woman. It’s because they ran a shruggie campaign and expected to win because they weren’t Trump. Instead of getting their head out of their ass and actually understanding the people they’re trying to govern, they maintained the status quo. Instead of capitalizing on the momentum they had, they said “no thanks” and immediately went back to the boring, uninspired Democratic Party we all know and love.
And you know why they do it? Because they’ve got people like you (not you, because you can’t vote) that will literally vote for them no matter what. They don’t have to earn your vote, or even care what you think, because you have no principles or interests that would stop you from voting D. They can do whatever, because there’s people like you. And so if they lose, it’s on them, and it’s on the people that enable them to mail it in.
Best post in the thread. The more you demonize and alienate all Trump voters as dumb Americans, rednecks, fascists, etc., the more you make the Democrats less appealing to vote for. Trump feeds into how much people hate him and weaponizes it as a way to spin an "us vs. the world" and get conservatives riled up, and people like Mathgod play right into it.
Yes, there are a lot of crazies that are voting for Trump. But to believe that it's 50% of American voters that are insane, anti-democracy, etc. is plain stupid, and like PepsiFree says, it gives the Democrats a free pass to have a half-assed platform and think they've earned the Presidency because they're not Trump.
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Best post in the thread. The more you demonize and alienate all Trump voters as dumb Americans, rednecks, fascists, etc., the more you make the Democrats less appealing to vote for. Trump feeds into how much people hate him and weaponizes it as a way to spin an "us vs. the world" and get conservatives riled up, and people like Mathgod play right into it.
Yes, there are a lot of crazies that are voting for Trump. But to believe that it's 50% of American voters that are insane, anti-democracy, etc. is plain stupid, and like PepsiFree says, it gives the Democrats a free pass to have a half-assed platform and think they've earned the Presidency because they're not Trump.
The people saying these things are smart, which is what I don't get. You see it on social media and in person even where intelligent, thoughtful people will say things like, "if you're voting for Trump at this point, you're dumb/racist/fascist/etc.". It's fascinating to observe.
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Best post in the thread. The more you demonize and alienate all Trump voters as dumb Americans, rednecks, fascists, etc., the more you make the Democrats less appealing to vote for. Trump feeds into how much people hate him and weaponizes it as a way to spin an "us vs. the world" and get conservatives riled up, and people like Mathgod play right into it.
Yes, there are a lot of crazies that are voting for Trump. But to believe that it's 50% of American voters that are insane, anti-democracy, etc. is plain stupid, and like PepsiFree says, it gives the Democrats a free pass to have a half-assed platform and think they've earned the Presidency because they're not Trump.
I was thinking this weekend how incredible it was that all these fragmented groups with marginal beliefs and seemingly nothing in common have come together for a cohesive unit for right-wing, semi-authoritarian politicians. Not just in the US, but across western democracies.
The playbook is so similar, and somehow libertarians, gun enthusiasts, anti-environmentalists, incels, hard-core christians, anti-vaxxers, tech bros, flat earthers, nazis, etc have built a serious coalition.
What I think has happened is they've found online communities that agree with them, and legitimize their opinions. This builds deep trust with these communities, and the members become really receptive to other ideas that are proposed.
It's a bit like the community facebook group. If I see somebody in my community group recommending a great restaurant, I'm way more likely to try it then if I see an ad or drive by it.
What I think is interesting is how much of these communities are organic and real and how much of the communities are bots and foreign governments farms?
If you think of it, it's such a great strategy to disrupt your biggest adversaries. You can't convince all of the people, but you slowly convince small pockets, and eventually those small pockets become a serious part of public opinion.
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The people saying these things are smart, which is what I don't get. You see it on social media and in person even where intelligent, thoughtful people will say things like, "if you're voting for Trump at this point, you're dumb/racist/fascist/etc.". It's fascinating to observe.
It's a shift that I think comes from frustration. Taking the highroàd isn't working so people are deciding to get down in the muck because it seems to work for the otherside.
Part of the equation is how do you get people to move away from fascist ideology.
Seems like a good time for this poem:
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
-Martin Niemöller
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Best post in the thread. The more you demonize and alienate all Trump voters as dumb Americans, rednecks, fascists, etc., the more you make the Democrats less appealing to vote for. Trump feeds into how much people hate him and weaponizes it as a way to spin an "us vs. the world" and get conservatives riled up, and people like Mathgod play right into it.
Yes, there are a lot of crazies that are voting for Trump. But to believe that it's 50% of American voters that are insane, anti-democracy, etc. is plain stupid, and like PepsiFree says, it gives the Democrats a free pass to have a half-assed platform and think they've earned the Presidency because they're not Trump.
I'm somewhat curious what makes their platform halfassed?
I sense there is extent to which a narrative is being bitten on here. I think they have a very real platform, not all of which I would personally agree with. But I struggle to imagine a policy area you are likely to agree with where the Dems haven't put a more fully fleshed out plan that you would agree with more (maybe that first time home buyer grants are likely to have a negative feedback loop on the housing affordability?)
I agree crapping on Trumpers isn't going to fix the situation we are in, but buying into the half truths of social media is probably going to do more harm.
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If you’ve built “the right” into this evil monolith voting block,
Nope, you and ThePrince are putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting my position. I never said people who vote Trump are evil. I said they've been deceived by a 9 year onslaught of disinformation and fear mongering coming from Trump and the right-wing media ecosystem. People keep listening to the liars and grifters instead of making an effort to find the actual truth on various topics. That doesn't make them evil, but it does make them irresponsible. Some disappointment of them is to be expected. Expressions of disappointment should not come as a surprise. But that's not the same thing as demonizing them and making them out to be evil.
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yet regardless of the real or imagined danger, you employ the exact same rhetoric and thinking that enables people like Trump and DeSantisand allows them to thrive.
Wrong.
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This is not a game you can switch on and off. You argue you shouldn’t have any principles because “the other side” doesn’t. That’s not how principles work, you’re just justifying not having any.
You are conflating two very different things. Withholding your vote is not the same thing as having principles.
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Whether you want to admit it or not, there are going to be a lot of good, principled people who for one reason or another vote Trump. It’s just the way it is. They’re not all evil crazy rednecks that want a fascist to kill all their enemies. Whether it’s differing political views, a differing sense of the “danger,” or just a lack of education, there’s a whole swath of people that will vote Trump that would, in fact, vote for someone a lot less crazy and a lot better for America.
Once again you're making up this thing about me calling Trump voters evil. They're misinformed and making a disastrous decision, but (for most of them anyway) it's not being done with malicious intent. I don't think they're evil, in fact, I know that most of them aren't. They are, however, skirting their responsibility of properly informing themselves about what's at stake in this election, and what each candidate plans to do once they take office.
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So yeah, you should believe parties need to earn a vote. This isn’t controversial, unique, or something that you can just “pause” for one election.
Sounds great in theory, but in the reality of a two-party system that the US has, if one side splinters, the other side gets sustained, unchecked power. And when it's a full-blown psychopath like Trump who gets the unrestrained power, it presents obvious problems for America and the world.
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The fear mongering stuff just is not effective.
Again I reject the notion that it's "fear mongering" to warn people about real dangers. It is absolutely not ok to have a climate change denier in the WH when the world is already in a very precarious position as it is. It's not ok to have a trickle-down economics peddler in the WH when wealth inequality is worse than it's ever been, and so many people out there are struggling to make ends meet. And it's absolutely unconscionable to have an insurrection-inciter in the WH who refuses to accept the results of a legitimate election.
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I’m not sure you realize it, but you are really good at projecting your own approach onto what you imagine as the very worst parts of the right wing.
No, not really. Unless you're willing to substantiate that and provide evidence, there's not much here to respond to.
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As much as people like yourself don’t want to admit it, if Harris loses, it isn’t because of people who care about issues you don’t, or non-voters, or even Trump voters.
As much as people like yourself don’t want to admit it, if Harris loses, every single person who did anything other than vote Harris does in fact hold a portion of the blame. If you had a chance to use your vote to stop Trump and chose not to, then yes you make it easier for him to win than you otherwise would have.
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It isn’t because she’s Black, or a woman. It’s because they ran a shruggie campaign and expected to win because they weren’t Trump. Instead of getting their head out of their ass and actually understanding the people they’re trying to govern, they maintained the status quo. Instead of capitalizing on the momentum they had, they said “no thanks” and immediately went back to the boring, uninspired Democratic Party we all know and love.
Are they running a perfect campaign? No. Have they made some mistakes along the way? Yes.
But to sit back and say "it's their fault if they lose because uninspiring campaign" misses the mark. I think they've run a reasonably inspiring campaign and have drawn a very clear, stark contrast between them and the Trump campaign. They've put forth good policy proposals such as $50k tax credit for new businesses, expanding the child tax credit, gun safety laws such as red flag laws, removing college degree requirements for many government jobs, and making the rich pay (closer to, anyway) their fair share in taxes while lowering taxes for the middle class.
You might not think the differences between Harris and Trump matter. But I think they matter. I think they matter to such a great degree that there's probably no combination of words I could type here that would get you to understand how much I think they matter.
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And you know why they do it? Because they’ve got people like you (not you, because you can’t vote) that will literally vote for them no matter what. They don’t have to earn your vote, or even care what you think, because you have no principles or interests that would stop you from voting D. They can do whatever, because there’s people like you. And so if they lose, it’s on them, and it’s on the people that enable them to mail it in.
This is quite honestly a misconception. The real reason why they aren't going further to the left is because most of the voters available to them are in the center. People want centrist policies that you call uninspiring. That's a hard truth that you don't seem willing to admit. You accuse the Democratic party of not meeting voters where they are. But they actually are meeting voters where they are. There just happen to be far more centrists than there are leftists in America. Going hard left isn't how you win an American election. There's a reason why Bernie lost by a 2 to 1 margin to Biden in the 2020 primaries.
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I think Harris' platform certainly has issues, and I think Mathgod is going a little far. But I do think there comes a point when you have to compare "this platform has issues and doesn't fully align with my beliefs" to "this platform is bat#### crazy and all sorts of people including immigrants, minorities, women, and LGBTQ+ are going to suffer when you have to just kind of hold your noise and vote for the former.
The Israel issue is absolutely a huge issue and it should be a huge issue, but it's really hard to see Trump being at all better in any way for anyone in the world except dictators and rich white guys.
I think Harris' platform certainly has issues, and I think Mathgod is going a little far. But I do think there comes a point when you have to compare "this platform has issues and doesn't fully align with my beliefs" to "this platform is bat#### crazy and all sorts of people including immigrants, minorities, women, and LGBTQ+ are going to suffer when you have to just kind of hold your noise and vote for the former.
The Israel issue is absolutely a huge issue and it should be a huge issue, but it's really hard to see Trump being at all better in any way for anyone in the world except dictators and rich white guys.
On the Israeli issue Trump and the GOP are never, ever going to be better. The only side to put pressure on is the Democrats, even if it costs them/us the election. That way, they'll listen next time.
Everyone has issues that are not being addressed, moreso progressives, and the party that's supposed to be for progressives can't just dismiss these issues just by saying, the other side is more evil. Yes, there comes a point that you have to vote one side over the other but there are also dealbreakers.
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Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
Why have dreams if you don't want to dare in them?
His MO isn’t criminal per se, just is dying to lead a technocracy. With Donald at the helm along a opportunistic slime ball second in command. Elon as the éminence grise.
Nope, you and ThePrince are putting words in my mouth and misrepresenting my position. I never said people who vote Trump are evil. I said they've been deceived by a 9 year onslaught of disinformation and fear mongering coming from Trump and the right-wing media ecosystem. People keep listening to the liars and grifters instead of making an effort to find the actual truth on various topics. That doesn't make them evil, but it does make them irresponsible. Some disappointment of them is to be expected. Expressions of disappointment should not come as a surprise. But that's not the same thing as demonizing them and making them out to be evil.
OK, sorry, you didn’t call them evil, you called them low effort, easily duped, irresponsible, uncaring, and the worst people out of all the voters.
Much better.
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Originally Posted by Mathgod
Wrong.
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Originally Posted by Mathgod
You are conflating two very different things. Withholding your vote is not the same thing as having principles.
I did not conflate the two, but people with principles may make the decision not to vote because of those principles. You’re saying the other side doesn’t have any, so why should you? That’s lame, especially considering this particular note was brought up in reference to people not voting because they don’t agree with the decisions the Democratic Party made, and you suggesting them making a decision based on their principles is wrong and if they *really* cared they’d vote for them anyway.
You should urge everyone to vote based on their principles and what they believe is right. Including Republicans. It would avoid Trump. Nobody should vote for a specific party, or vote at all, if the vote would be for someone that doesn’t align with their principles.
This is one of those instances where you sound closer to a far-right Republican than a centrist Democrat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathgod
Once again you're making up this thing about me calling Trump voters evil. They're misinformed and making a disastrous decision, but (for most of them anyway) it's not being done with malicious intent. I don't think they're evil, in fact, I know that most of them aren't. They are, however, skirting their responsibility of properly informing themselves about what's at stake in this election, and what each candidate plans to do once they take office.
Perhaps the Democratic Party should try to do a better job of reaching those people, no? Instead of just calling them irresponsible and shrugging their shoulders?
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Originally Posted by Mathgod
Sounds great in theory, but in the reality of a two-party system that the US has, if one side splinters, the other side gets sustained, unchecked power. And when it's a full-blown psychopath like Trump who gets the unrestrained power, it presents obvious problems for America and the world.
The comment has nothing to do with sides. It’s a statement that applies to all voters. “They’re not doing it so why should I” is a genuinely terrible approach.
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Originally Posted by Mathgod
Again I reject the notion that it's "fear mongering" to warn people about real dangers. It is absolutely not ok to have a climate change denier in the WH when the world is already in a very precarious position as it is. It's not ok to have a trickle-down economics peddler in the WH when wealth inequality is worse than it's ever been, and so many people out there are struggling to make ends meet. And it's absolutely unconscionable to have an insurrection-inciter in the WH who refuses to accept the results of a legitimate election.
This has been explained to you. It’s not the legitimacy of the danger that dictates what is or isn’t fear mongering, it’s the methodology behind how you make people aware of it.
Over-reliance on the most dramatic dangers, real or not, can be counterintuitive because it makes the danger seem abstract and hard to imagine.
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Originally Posted by Mathgod
As much as people like yourself don’t want to admit it, if Harris loses, every single person who did anything other than vote Harris does in fact hold a portion of the blame. If you had a chance to use your vote to stop Trump and chose not to, then yes you make it easier for him to win than you otherwise would have.
I used to believe this kind of thing, too, and I still struggle with it sometimes. I get the need to blame everybody else for not doing what you think is the best thing, but in the end, especially when it comes to politics, you can’t absolve the parties of actually having to earn votes and you can lean into your own fear and anger and just blame everyone who didn’t do exactly what you want for you not getting it. People who vote Trump will have active ownership of Trump being in power, they literally voted for him. Lumping undecideds and people who just don’t vote for any number of reasons in with them? That’s just a weak scare/shame tactic to get people to do something. And guess what? It doesn’t work, and may even work against you.
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Originally Posted by Mathgod
Are they running a perfect campaign? No. Have they made some mistakes along the way? Yes.
But to sit back and say "it's their fault if they lose because uninspiring campaign" misses the mark. I think they've run a reasonably inspiring campaign and have drawn a very clear, stark contrast between them and the Trump campaign. They've put forth good policy proposals such as $50k tax credit for new businesses, expanding the child tax credit, gun safety laws such as red flag laws, removing college degree requirements for many government jobs, and making the rich pay (closer to, anyway) their fair share in taxes while lowering taxes for the middle class.
And yet much of America disagrees with you, which is the problem that needs solving. And it literally is party’s fault. Their job during a campaign is to get elected. They’ve lost momentum, they’re falling at the worst possible time.
Should make for a quick debrief if they lose, though. The plan for 2028? “More of the same and we’ll see how it goes! They’ll come around.”
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Originally Posted by Mathgod
You might not think the differences between Harris and Trump matter. But I think they matter. I think they matter to such a great degree that there's probably no combination of words I could type here that would get you to understand how much I think they matter.
I do. Why complain about putting words in your mouth and then do the same? We’re not talking about the difference between them.
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Originally Posted by Mathgod
This is quite honestly a misconception. The real reason why they aren't going further to the left is because most of the voters available to them are in the center. People want centrist policies that you call uninspiring. That's a hard truth that you don't seem willing to admit. You accuse the Democratic party of not meeting voters where they are. But they actually are meeting voters where they are. There just happen to be far more centrists than there are leftists in America. Going hard left isn't how you win an American election. There's a reason why Bernie lost by a 2 to 1 margin to Biden in the 2020 primaries.
This has literally nothing to do with them moving further left or not, so I’m not sure what you’re accomplishing by trying to talk down to “the left.” Hell, if the Democrats want to appeal to the center-right Republicans at the expense of some votes on the left, go wild, but LOL if you’re going to sit there and say “the left” should just vote for them anyway.
Here’s a “hard truth” you don’t “seem willing to admit”: If people wanted the message the Democrats are offering to the extent you imagine they do, they’d be in blowout territory.
But, you know, they ain’t. And I understand it’s easier to look down on people who disagree with you or try to use shame or fear to make people do what you expect them to do, but where do you go from there when it doesn’t make a difference?
Against a very very beatable opponent, the Democrats are in danger of losing. Yet your position is that they’re inspiring, meeting voters where they are, and presenting good policy, and it’s not their fault they’re in danger of losing, it’s everyone else?
If they lose, that attitude is going to be a giant contributor.
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