Calgary Public Transit - Discussion

[getbak]

This week, City Council will be debating the 4 proposed solutions for the downtown portion of the North-Central C-Train route.

Here's a summary of the four options: http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sire...&fileid=319712

All four options will see the train go underground (travelling southbound) between 24th and 20th Ave N on Centre Street with an underground station at 16th Ave N. Once across the river, the train will move, grade-separated, along 2nd St SE until it crosses the CP Rail tracks and continues eastbound along 10th Ave S.

So, basically, what they're debating is how to get the train across the river and into downtown.

Option A: After passing under 16th Ave, the train would return above-ground at 9th Ave N and continue along Centre Street across the existing Centre Street Bridge. Once across the bridge, it will turn west onto 3rd Ave S. It will then travel west until going underground again and following an underground route at 2nd St W between 3rd and 10th Avenues S.

Option B: After going underground at 20th Ave, the train will remain below ground until emerging just north of the river by the Curling Club. It will cross the river and Prince's Island on a newly-built bridge west of the existing Centre Street Bridge. Once across the river, the train will go underground and run below 2nd St W from 3rd Ave to 10th Ave.

Option C: The same as Option B until the train is across the river. Once across the river, the tracks would remain elevated and the train would travel along elevated tracks through downtown (with enough height to go over the existing +15 bridges) until returning to at-grade service on 10th Ave S.

Option D: The train goes below ground at 24th Ave N and remains underground across the river and through downtown, returning to the surface at 10th Ave S.



Option A is budgeted at $600 million, B and C are both $800 million, and D would be $1.3 billion.

Option A is the cheapest, but would also be the most disruptive to Centre Street traffic and would have the greatest likelihood of collisions between the C-Train and vehicles on the road.

Option D is the most "future-proof" and would be the least-disruptive to the way things are now. It's also about a half a billion dollars more to build. Going under the river would require deeper tunnels and deeper stations. The station at 9th Ave N under Option D would be 13 storeys underground, which obviously would require greater infrastructure to move people between the surface and the station. Under the other 3 options, the deepest station would be 5 storeys underground.



To me, it seems obvious that Option D is the best solution and A is the worst. B & C are an in-between compromise. The cost savings for A aren't enough to justify messing up Centre Street like it would, so it shouldn't even be considered. I don't like the above-grade options for C and it's the same cost as tunneling through downtown, so I don't see the advantage.

I think it should be either B or D. I'd prefer D, but obviously it will cost a lot more, and I don't know if it's worth it.

[Tyler]

Option D. Pay the money now and do it right.

[Ironhorse]

I certainly hope the SE transit way is addressed before the North leg gets built.

[calgarygeologist]

I have heard that going under the river will be very difficult and expensive. As another alternative, I wonder if they can go underground from 24th until around 2nd Ave north and pop out of the hill and utilize the lower deck of the Center street bridge. Once across the bridge they can go back underground through downtown. It is similar to option B but I don't think B would get much support if it is going to run over top of Prince's Island at all.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

I certainly hope the SE transit way is addressed before the North leg gets built.

No way.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by getbak

http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sire...5070215471.PDF

Umm... 404'd.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I have heard that going under the river will be very difficult and expensive. As another alternative, I wonder if they can go underground from 24th until around 2nd Ave north and pop out of the hill and utilize the lower deck of the Center street bridge. Once across the bridge they can go back underground through downtown. It is similar to option B but I don't think B would get much support if it is going to run over top of Prince's Island at all.

I don't think that would be physically possible. The lower deck of the bridge has a clearance of 8'10". I don't know how tall a C-Train car is, but I know that I'm 6'1" and can stand comfortably inside one without banging my head and the platforms are a few feet off the ground, so they're definitely much taller than 9 feet.

With the way it's built, they wouldn't be able to lower the lower deck to increase the clearance either.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by SebC

Umm... 404'd.

Weird, the direct link must have a time limit. Try this: http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sire...&fileid=319712

Or this: http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sire...a&itemid=34686

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by getbak

This week, City Council will be debating the 4 proposed solutions for the downtown portion of the North-Central C-Train route.

I'd be a lot more excited about this if construction actually starts before 2035

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Tyler

Option D. Pay the money now and do it right.

I say option B. We are talking about $500 million for the sake of keeping the train underground/ under-river for an extra few hundred metres. From the way I read it, option B will not have any level crossings and will not restrict the flow of the train at all.

That's a lot of extra money for a slight improvement. Spend that money elsewhere to build other tunnels that would otherwise need to be level crossings.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I say option B. We are talking about $500 million for the sake of keeping the train underground/ under-river for an extra few hundred metres. From the way I read it, option B will not have any level crossings and will not restrict the flow of the train at all.

That's a lot of extra money for a slight improvement. Spend that money elsewhere to build other tunnels that would otherwise need to be level crossings.

Putting a bridge over even a small, eastern portion of Prince's Island park is a terrible idea though. That will not be acceptable.

[Finger Cookin]

So we're pretty much not going to get D then.

[Antithesis]

Do they include 'solutions' like option A only to highlight what a bad idea it would be? To make the other options look better by association?

It seems obvious that option D is the wisest long-term solution. If we choose option B or C, will they eventually put that portion underground anyway? If so, option D may actually be the cheapest aside from A.

[You Need a Thneed]

No, option B and C would never be converted to option D. Neither of them have any level crossing issues that could restrict capacity. It's just a matter if you want to save 500 million but disrupt a portion of princes island park.

Option C (vs option B) would be a little less disruptive to Princes island Park, but it would be more disruptive to 2nd Street. I don't think option C makes sense over option B at the same cost.

Option A is terrible and should never be considered.

[SebC]

Just get Calavatra to design the bridge, and B would not be that bad.

[SebC]

Also, a level crossing at Macleod Trail seems like it might be a bad idea.

[SebC]

Cross-posting a message I sent to 311, because I'm pissed off.

Heading Southbound from Centre Street Station I was subject to multiple inaccurate pieces of information pertaining to the depature time of the final train of the night. I arrived at the station at 1:41 AM. It turned out that the train was running behind schedule, and arrived after 2:00 AM.

Per Google Maps, the train was to depart at 1:48 AM. Per the paper sign at the station, there is a timepoint at 8 St SW, from which the train is not to depart prior to 1:45. So I felt that arriving at 1:41 I should not have missed the final train. The electronic signage also indicated 1:45.

The biggest failure, however, was the transit police who attempted to clear out the stations at approximately 1:53. The drove up, and I asked them if I had missed the final train. They stated that I had. I informed them that I had been at the station since 1:41 and the signage indicated 1:45. They asked if I was sure. I stated that I was. At no point did they offer me any kind of assistance.

I see three points of failure here that should each be unacceptable on their own. All three together is massive incompetence.

First, real time GPS data should be passed through to Google. Perhaps Calgary Transit's website would've shown the correct time, but given the limited capalities of my phone, I cannot access it easily.

Second, the electronic signage at stations should use GPS data. If it does not, it should explicitly inform users than it may not be accurate.

Finally, as an absolutely last resort, transit operators must be able to communicate with transit police in order to not falsely tell customers that there are no more trains.

[Huntingwhale]

Those ''real time'' signs are the biggest farce. No way in hell it uses true GPS data.

[Bigtime]

I absolutely HATE the idea of any bridge going over Prince's Island Park, it is a sanctuary and a refuge in the heart of our core. We already destroyed one such gem with a "renovation" (the Devonian Gardens), let's not make the same mistake again.

We go big, we go deep, we go with option D. Henceforth we shall call it "The Big D", because to be truly world class we need to have a nickname for this project.

[BlackArcher101]

As in the project will give us the big D and leave us hurting?