Israel declares war on Hamas

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Beninho

They are? Interesting, Arab-Israelis are being ethnically cleansed out of Israel? News to me.

I mean... there is a lot of language in the knesset that would point to the notion that they would like to commit a genocide.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Well then why even mention it? If Beninho wants to go back to Morocco, then please, go back to Morocco.

How about this? Let's make a deal, you go back to Morocco and I take your place and move to Haifa? Let's fix the problems that Israel's creation caused.

I think you've (possibly unintentionally) stated the quiet part out loud. That's the problem, many Arab nations will never accept that Israel exists. They will only be happy when Israel ceases to exist. So, the first question each of us need to understand for ourselves before we try to understand this quagmire is "does Israel have the right to exist". If the answer is 'no', it's unfortunate but honest. If the answer is 'yes', then it leads to many more questions.

[zunie75]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I was countering the assertion that Arabs are protesting Palestinians being ethnically cleansed with the fact that their societies have already finished their ethnic cleansing of Jews so it is hypocritical. Last time I checked the Palestinian population has only increased and not declined in Gaza, West Bank, and within Israel. So i am unsure where this genocide is actually occurring. Israel gave citizenship to all Arabs who stayed within Israel borders in 1948, pretty bad way to ethnically cleanse them.

I believe the Palestinians deserve a state and have stated that several times in this thread.

Its good that you feel they deserve a state of their own, but your post just spews of hate. Using what happened in the past to seemingly ignore what could be happening now is dangerous thinking. Not to mention your generalization that all Arab nations currently protesting are backwards.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I mean... there is a lot of language in the knesset that would point to the notion that they would like to commit a genocide.

Are there extremists in Israel’s government ? Yes. Do they have more power than I would like? Yes. Do israelis criticize the hell out of them? Also yes. But as of today the Israeli government continues to respect all of its Arab citizens. If ethnic cleansing or a genocide was occurring then in my opinion they are doing a very poor job at it. I continue to disagree with the settlements in the west bank, but I still fail to see where any genocide or ethnic cleansing is happening.
The situation is a land dispute with the Palestinians stuck in perpetual refugee status which I agree is not a solution. If Israel begun rounding up Palestinians and removing them from the west bank, Israel, and Gaza then i could see the argument.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

I think you've (possibly unintentionally) stated the quiet part out loud. That's the problem, many Arab nations will never accept that Israel exists. They will only be happy when Israel ceases to exist. So, the first question each of us need to understand for ourselves before we try to understand this quagmire is "does Israel have the right to exist". If the answer is 'no', it's unfortunate but honest. If the answer is 'yes', then it leads to many more questions.

Does any nation have a right to exist? Does canada have a right to exist? Does China? North Korea? Nations either exist or they don't. All humans have a right to exist in dignity and security within the borders of a nation that serves this purpose. The right of a nation to exist is not enshrined anywhere.This is such a cliche used by the pro-israel camp.

The Jewish people have a right to exist. The Palestinian people have a right to exist. Does a settler-colonial, apartheid state have a right to exist to serve the purpose of only one of those people?

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by zunie75

Its good that you feel they deserve a state of their own, but your post just spews of hate. Using what happened in the past to seemingly ignore what could be happening now is dangerous thinking. Not to mention your generalization that all Arab nations currently protesting are backwards.

Any country that incorporates Sharia law is backwards. For example in Jordan two women’s testimonies in Sharia courts is worth the testimony of one man. Not backwards?

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Does any nation have a right to exist? Does canada have a right to exist? Does China? North Korea? Nations either exist or they don't.

Agreed. I think we can both agree that Israel does, in fact, exist.

All humans have a right to exist in dignity and security within the borders of a nation that serves this purpose.

Also agreed. And generally, it is the first responsibility of the nation to protect the citizens that they are entrusted to.

The right of a nation to exist is not enshrined anywhere.This is such a cliche used by the pro-israel camp.

I don't know what you mean by cliche. You just said they exist or they don't. Israel is clearly in the 'exist' column.

Does a settler-colonial, apartheid state have a right to exist to serve the purpose of only one of those people?

Clearly no. I think the Settlements in the West Bank are an afront to human dignity and Israel should be sanctioned until they reverse course. However, that's not why Hamas attacked on Oct.7.

Canada is a settler-colonial, (could be argued) apartheid state. So is the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Chile, Mexico and, if you want to go back far enough, almost every nation that every was since history started to be written. We've accepted that these nations exist and that the people in those nations shouldn't be terrorized, murdered and raped simply because their nation exists. But...like I said, many Arab and/or Muslim nations will not be satisfied until Israel ceases to exist.

You said:

Let's fix the problems that Israel's creation caused.

A- what do you mean by that if you don't mean that Israel shouldn't exist?
B- how? You seem to imply it's pretty simple.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Any country that incorporates Sharia law is backwards. For example in Jordan two women’s testimonies in Sharia courts is worth the testimony of one man. Not backwards?

That's misleading.

Most Arab countries, including Jordan, do not use sharia law. Jordan's criminal courts are secular. Sharia law only applies to personal status matters like marriage and divorce and also only applies to Muslims. Christians and other communities are governed by a different set of laws.

Nice try though.

[Sliver]

Imma just chime in to say every country that governs with a religious bent is ridiculous. People should not be limited in any way, shape or form based on religious ideology. Secular governance is best because it doesn't rely on ridiculous bs from books hundreds or thousands of years old. People should be free to practice any religion they want, but it should not impact or be imposed on anybody else inside or outside their country.

/obvious

[zunie75]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Imma just chime in to say every country that governs with a religious bent is ridiculous. People should not be limited in any way, shape or form based on religious ideology. Secular governance is best because it doesn't rely on ridiculous bs from books hundreds or thousands of years old. People should be free to practice any religion they want, but it should not impact or be imposed on anybody else inside or outside their country.

/obvious

Looking at you USA lol

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Agreed. I think we can both agree that Israel does, in fact, exist.



Also agreed. And generally, it is the first responsibility of the nation to protect the citizens that they are entrusted to.



I don't know what you mean by cliche. You just said they exist or they don't. Israel is clearly in the 'exist' column.



Clearly no. I think the Settlements in the West Bank are an afront to human dignity and Israel should be sanctioned until they reverse course. However, that's not why Hamas attacked on Oct.7.

Canada is a settler-colonial, (could be argued) apartheid state. So is the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Chile, Mexico and, if you want to go back far enough, almost every nation that every was since history started to be written. We've accepted that these nations exist and that the people in those nations shouldn't be terrorized, murdered and raped simply because their nation exists. But...like I said, many Arab and/or Muslim nations will not be satisfied until Israel ceases to exist.

You said:


A- what do you mean by that if you don't mean that Israel shouldn't exist?
B- how? You seem to imply it's pretty simple.

All the countries you listed have moved on from being settler colonial ethnostates to immigrant driven states with equality and freedom for all. There's no comparison between the 2.

To answer your questions:
Israel needs to move on from what they currently are to something more similar to what you listed above. It's totally acceptable that Israel exists and it's totally acceptable that jews exist within Israel. What's not ok is the current system that allows the complete domination of the Jewish population over the Palestinians.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by _Q_

All the countries you listed have moved on from being settler colonial ethnostates to immigrant driven states with equality and freedom for all. There's no comparison between the 2.

To answer your questions:
Israel needs to move on from what they currently are to something more similar to what you listed above. It's totally acceptable that Israel exists and it's totally acceptable that jews exist within Israel. What's not ok is the current system that allows the complete domination of the Jewish population over the Palestinians.

Palestinians deserve their own state but to Israelis there is less than zero trust that Palestinians would not continue to wage war with Israel if there was a Palestinian state. That is where the crux of this issues lies. Radical Islam within Palestinian society makes Israelis concerns valid, and the attack of last week only confirmed that. How can Israel trust that a Palestinian state would not become another proxy for Iran? I am seriously wondering how you think Israel could trust Palestinians and what needs to occur so a religious dictatorship would not be in control of a future Palestinian state? I am actually interested in hearing your views on this, not trying to argue.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

If Trudeau's first statement had just said "we need more information," then half the nation would be yelling about him being unwilling to condemn the zionists for their war crimes, or something like that. If he'd said nothing, you'd all be complaining about him abdicating leadership.

Long story short: keep on manufacturing anger. It's really helping things.

It really doesn’t matter what side of this conflict you are on or if you are left or right leaning politically. Trudeau’s first statement should not have insinuated Israel bombed a hospital. It’s spreading misinformation that can be used as propaganda to further the terrorist’s cause. I don’t think that’s too much to expect from the PM of Canada, is it?

Believe me, I am not manufacturing anger. Lol. Far from it. Relax.

We can see how misinformation is spread on this thread alone, we do t need the PM contributing to the spread of misinformation. It also takes away from whatever credibility he has left.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

All the countries you listed have moved on from being settler colonial ethnostates to immigrant driven states with equality and freedom for all. There's no comparison between the 2.

To answer your questions:
Israel needs to move on from what they currently are to something more similar to what you listed above. It's totally acceptable that Israel exists and it's totally acceptable that jews exist within Israel. What's not ok is the current system that allows the complete domination of the Jewish population over the Palestinians.

Off topic, but....

Canada has moved on, but the indigenous people have not. They were totally eradicated. Residential schools closed in the 1990s. The issues are very much unresolved.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Palestinians deserve their own state but to Israelis there is less than zero trust that Palestinians would not continue to wage war with Israel if there was a Palestinian state. That is where the crux of this issues lies. Radical Islam within Palestinian society makes Israelis concerns valid, and the attack of last week only confirmed that. How can Israel trust that a Palestinian state would not become another proxy for Iran? I am seriously wondering how you think Israel could trust Palestinians and what needs to occur so a religious dictatorship would not be in control of a future Palestinian state? I am actually interested in hearing your views on this, not trying to argue.

Is jordan a proxy of Iran? Is Egypt?

Make meaningful peace with your neighbours and guess what? They move the #### on.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

It really doesn’t matter what side of this conflict you are on or if you are left or right leaning politically. Trudeau’s first statement should not have insinuated Israel bombed a hospital. It’s spreading misinformation that can be used as propaganda to further the terrorist’s cause. I don’t think that’s too much to expect from the PM of Canada, is it?

Believe me, I am not manufacturing anger. Lol. Far from it. Relax.

We can see how misinformation is spread on this thread alone, we do t need the PM contributing to the spread of misinformation. It also takes away from whatever credibility he has left.

If Trudeau was responding to a question that specific asks for his thoughts on reports of Israel bombing the hospital… what is he insinuating? All he would be doing is answering the actual question as it’s asked. And it’s not like politicians (and even news organizations) that are a lot more respectable than Trudeau didn’t take a similar position. When a lot of these comments were made, there wasn’t a competing viewpoint on the subject, the report was what it was.

I don’t know, the same people that make everything a “Trudeau thing” wanting to make this a Trudeau thing doesn’t inspire a lot of reason to give it more weight than it deserves. We don’t need to make up it being used as propaganda, as everything he said was true and applies to both the Israeli government and Hamas.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Is jordan a proxy of Iran? Is Egypt?

Make meaningful peace with your neighbours and guess what? They move the #### on.

Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza are both Iranian proxies so the fear is legitimate. Israel has shown an ability to make peace, but there is a legitimate concern a future Palestinian state would become another proxy based on obvious history. I think it is a valid concern. I would love there to be peace but you make it sound like it is that easy. I wish it was

[Muta]

Man, CNN just showed graphic video from the Hamas gunmen, shooting random civilians and also getting shot themselves. I should not have watched or listened to that.

[monkey brewery]

I tend not to comment on a grim current events because anything I write always feels inadequate. but Israel is trying to commit genocide.

I would reject the premise that being Jewish means I have a responsibility here, cause I feel that's touching in some fundamental antisemitism. Again, this is genocide.

Countries do not have the right to exist. People do. Everyone does.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

If Trudeau was responding to a question that specific asks for his thoughts on reports of Israel bombing the hospital… what is he insinuating? All he would be doing is answering the actual question as it’s asked. And it’s not like politicians (and even news organizations) that are a lot more respectable than Trudeau didn’t take a similar position. When a lot of these comments were made, there wasn’t a competing viewpoint on the subject, the report was what it was.

I don’t know, the same people that make everything a “Trudeau thing” wanting to make this a Trudeau thing doesn’t inspire a lot of reason to give it more weight than it deserves. We don’t need to make up it being used as propaganda, as everything he said was true and applies to both the Israeli government and Hamas.

Everything he said was true? You sure about that?