[Trade] Elias Lindholm to VAN for Kuzmenko, Brzustewicz, Jurmo, 2024 1st, cond 2024 4th

[PeteMoss]

On what planet is anyone giving Kuzmenko a 7 or 8 contract? I doubt even the biggest Kuz proponents are suggesting an 8 year contract. A 2nd or more likely a 3rd round pick isn't going to make or break the rebuild. If they decide to keep the guy - it will be fine and it won't be for 8 years.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I heard them mention he was a bit dinged up for a while there, playing through some things

Not enough history in the NHL to draw any conclusions about his consistency without full visibility

I like what I have seen, giving him the benefit of the doubt

[Strange Brew]

I'm all for the pump and dump strategy but we probably need to keep expectations in check. Wingers don't seem to have much trade value lately. He doesn't have the playoff pedigree as a Toffoli.

[Red_Baron]

With Kuzmenko, how many 2nd or 3rd round picks in the next couple drafts are going to produce a guy who scores 30?
Yes, there are some that will score 30 but there are 64 players drafted in that range every year. I get that you have a better chance of landing that player with more picks but why not place just as much value on a guy who has proven he can score at this level?

Trading any talent you do have for 2nds and 3rds sounds like shooting for mediocrity to me.

[Ashes]

Posted this in the CHL prospects thread but since it's related to Brzustewicz, might as well put it in here too:

https://flamesnation.ca/news/beyond-...-anaheim-ducks

OHL Coaches Poll came out and our boy Brzustewicz made it onto the list 3 times:

1st place - Smartest Player
2nd place - Best Offensive Defenseman (1st place was Parekh)
3rd place - Best Playmaker

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Red_Baron

With Kuzmenko, how many 2nd or 3rd round picks in the next couple drafts are going to produce a guy who scores 30?
Yes, there are some that will score 30 but there are 64 players drafted in that range every year. I get that you have a better chance of landing that player with more picks but why not place just as much value on a guy who has proven he can score at this level?

Trading any talent you do have for 2nds and 3rds sounds like shooting for mediocrity to me.

Keeping Kuzmenko is shooting for mediocrity for me. The Flames aren't competing over the next three seasons and he is too old to commit to in their current cycle.

You hope that you hit on a player with the pick that is better aligned to competitive cycle.

[1991 Canadian]

Given that the Flames got a 1st, Brzustewicz, Jurmo and a conditional 4th, I'm genuinely fine with any of the outcomes

-Kuzmenko plays out his contract next year and moves on
-Kuzmenko gets his value pumped up, the Flames retain and trade for more futures
-Kuzmenko signs an extension

The Flames already got good value out of the trade.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by CFO

He just like huselius. You play him to his strengths.

This thread just reminded me how much I miss Juice. My favorite player of that era

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by 1991 Canadian

Given that the Flames got a 1st, Brzustewicz, Jurmo and a conditional 4th, I'm genuinely fine with any of the outcomes

-Kuzmenko plays out his contract next year and moves on
-Kuzmenko gets his value pumped up, the Flames retain and trade for more futures
-Kuzmenko signs an extension

The Flames already got good value out of the trade.

With the way Lindholm has fallen off a cliff, this is a good return and anything that happens with Kuzmenko is a bonus. If it was for the good Lindholm and included retention, then we would probably be more concerned, but given the current state the Flames should be happy. I doubt Lindholm garners a similar return at the TDL the way his play was headed. Conroy did well here.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Red_Baron

With Kuzmenko, how many 2nd or 3rd round picks in the next couple drafts are going to produce a guy who scores 30?
Yes, there are some that will score 30 but there are 64 players drafted in that range every year. I get that you have a better chance of landing that player with more picks but why not place just as much value on a guy who has proven he can score at this level?

Trading any talent you do have for 2nds and 3rds sounds like shooting for mediocrity to me.

This has been talked about many times before, but this is wrong. Draft picks when you're rebuilding is about "bullets in the chamber" not directly comparing the production of an older player to the chances of the exact draft pick they're traded for turning into the same.

It's about having (just making up a number for an example) 5X first round picks, 5X second round picks, 6X third round picks etc over say a three year period. And hopefully hitting 3 stars over that period instead of 1. That's how rebuilds are accelerated.

[jayswin]

But you don't know which picks will be the ones that turn into the next core player. It could be your own 2nd round pick or maybe it's that 2nd for a pending UFA that everyone said "meh, a second? Why bother, just keep him if that's the market".

Bullets in the chamber, it's critical unless you're the Rangers and everyone just finds their way to your team.

[Steve Bozek]

I don’t understand the rush to get rid of him. Minimal ice time with Vancouver this year where there were too many good wingers ahead of him, and the Calgary stint has been limited by injury and illness. I don’t think we’ve really had enough of a sample to see what he’s capable of when he gets quality ice time on a regular basis.

[YyjFlames]

Originally Posted by jayswin

But you don't know which picks will be the ones that turn into the next core player. It could be your own 2nd round pick or maybe it's that 2nd for a pending UFA that everyone said "meh, a second? Why bother, just keep him if that's the market".

Bullets in the chamber, it's critical unless you're the Rangers and everyone just finds their way to your team.

Yeah, Dallas is cited a lot with how they used their extra picks in their 2017 draft, but in 2015 Calgary got a second and a third for Glencross -- after trading their first and second for Hamilton -- and drafted Andersson with the second and used the extra third with their third to trade up and grab Kylington.

Definition of benefiting from extra bullets.

And even with how poorly Boston drafted in that 2015 year with all of their extra bullets, they at least got Debrusk and Carlo out of that draft because they had the extra picks.

[Icon]

Originally Posted by Steve Bozek

I don’t understand the rush to get rid of him. Minimal ice time with Vancouver this year where there were too many good wingers ahead of him, and the Calgary stint has been limited by injury and illness. I don’t think we’ve really had enough of a sample to see what he’s capable of when he gets quality ice time on a regular basis.

I'd argue it's the same reason there shouldn't be a rush to sign him to an extension this summer either.

I think best options are take him to market next trade deadline, or sign him to another 2 or 3 year deal to fill a spot on the roster and trade him later (or see how we're doing then to decide).

Worst option would be give him a 5-8yr extension, just don't see the need to do it when at least half those years we're unlikely competing for a cup, or probably even playoffs.

[Toonage]

There is zero rush to do anything with him. He's under contract next season and has done nothing thus far to warrant an extension or an off season trade that will return anything of value. Plus they need bodies and his cap is reasonable.

[Macindoc]

Kuzmenko is not the kind of player you build a winning culture around. He's fine as a secondary scorer on a very competitive team, but with the inconsistency of his play, he's not a role model for younger players. If you have a choice between keeping Kuzmenko or keeping Coleman, for example, you keep Coleman, in spite of Kuzmenko's undeniably superior skill. At his age, I don't see a role for Kuzmenko at his age on a rebuilding team, and any contract extension should be a year at most.

In terms of maximizing assets, the Flames are probably best off putting Kuzmenko on PP1 and in a top 6 role next season, then trading him for the best available return at the deadline. Maybe if he's on pace for 30 goals, with 50% retained he gets them a late 1st, or a 2nd and a B prospect.

[Stormchaser]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

Kuzmenko is not the kind of player you build a winning culture around. He's fine as a secondary scorer on a very competitive team, but with the inconsistency of his play, he's not a role model for younger players. If you have a choice between keeping Kuzmenko or keeping Coleman, for example, you keep Coleman, in spite of Kuzmenko's undeniably superior skill. At his age, I don't see a role for Kuzmenko at his age on a rebuilding team, and any contract extension should be a year at most.

In terms of maximizing assets, the Flames are probably best off putting Kuzmenko on PP1 and in a top 6 role next season, then trading him for the best available return at the deadline. Maybe if he's on pace for 30 goals, with 50% retained he gets them a late 1st, or a 2nd and a B prospect.

How do you know what kind of winning culture he is bringing? I mean, scoring goals is a good indication of being on the right track but only a part of it IMO. Leaders foster culture and gets engrained in the DNA of the team so I would be looking to the Andersson / Coleman / other Veterans to instil good attitude/commitment/buyin etc.

[jaikorven]

I query if he has had enough time here to properly determine whether he truly is inconsistent. In my opinion anyway.

I see how things went in Vancouver and he was not in the best position there either for whatever reason, so it seems too quick to label him as such.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Stormchaser

How do you know what kind of winning culture he is bringing? I mean, scoring goals is a good indication of being on the right track but only a part of it IMO. Leaders foster culture and gets engrained in the DNA of the team so I would be looking to the Andersson / Coleman / other Veterans to instil good attitude/commitment/buyin etc.

Steinberg mentioned the other day during Flames Talk how Kuzmenko often stays 30-45 min late after practice to continue working on skills, etc. That seems like a pretty good attitude to bring for kids to follow. But what do I know.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Steinberg mentioned the other day during Flames Talk how Kuzmenko often stays 30-45 min late after practice to continue working on skills, etc. That seems like a pretty good attitude to bring for kids to follow. But what do I know.

You can see an example of that in the video where Backlunds daughter is handing her t-shirts out to everyone. She was mad her dad took so long… and then had to go out to the bench and call Kuzmenko over who was out working on ice by himself.