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Old 05-15-2010, 04:03 PM   #201
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Can you link such a site?
I could but I don't want to deprive you of the exercise your fingers will receive by Googling for yourself.
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:05 PM   #202
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I could but I don't want to deprive you of the exercise your fingers will receive by Googling for yourself.
Weak. Your first post had a lot of potential for expansion, I was hoping you could further in-depth.
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:07 PM   #203
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What? Am I being judged here on artistic merit or something just as vague?
What does the judge for Finland vote for that last post?
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:08 PM   #204
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[QUOTE=Smelly Fred;2507983]
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Originally Posted by photon View Post

How absurd can you be?

Do you think Doctors Without Borders is like the Christian charities, preaching atheism to the victims while providing aid?

QUOTE]

Excuse me but DWB is a neutral organisation and does not advocate any philosophical, religous, political or otherwise worldview. They would not be classified as atheist just as they would not be described as theist. Neutral is just that and that gets them into locales where others may not practice. I would quote their preamble on their site describing their principles but my post would be wiped by administration.

Go look for yourself
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org...?ref=main-menu

I'm afraid you can't calim them as batting for your team buddy because that pidgeon is grounded. It's wings have been clipped. It is sitting on it's nest awaiting flight orders.
Photon provided an example of a non-religious orgnization that willingly gave aid and volunteers to Haiti. You then go and prove to us that indeed DWB is also a neutral and non-religious organization. You just proved his point. Photon's was showing how neutral aid organizations do not openly proselytize while many religiously affiliated organization do (although the larger mainstream ones have curbed this to an extent).

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Old 05-15-2010, 04:08 PM   #205
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What? Am I being judged here on artistic merit or something just as vague?
What does the judge for Finland vote for that last post?
You do realize that Peter12 is on your side right? As for the judge for Finland. Only 4% of people in Finland & Sweden attend Church so he's probably an atheist and that might sway his voting.

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Old 05-15-2010, 04:13 PM   #206
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Hack & Lube

What point exactly did I prove?
He used DWB as an example of an organisation that could preach atheism in Haiti. I proved that DWB is without a philosophical prejudice. Pray tell how that proves the point of DWB being an atheist organisation?
I must have not been at that meeting where it was proven that DWB had changed their stance.
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:14 PM   #207
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Hack & Lube

What point exactly did I prove?
He used DWB as an example of an organisation that could preach atheism in Haiti. I proved that DWB is without a philosophical prejudice. Pray tell how that proves the point of DWB being an atheist organisation?
I must have not been at that meeting where it was proven that DWB had changed their stance.
He did not argue that point whatsoever. You claimed that the cold hard message of atheism could not provide hope to those in Haiti. He offered that the medicines sans frontiers are a non-christian organization that offered aid and hope to those in Haiti and they were not spreading atheism to anyone.

It may have not been your intention but that is how it has been read by myself and Photon. I'm guessing that you meant that the message of atheism would not provide hope to suffering people in light of their circumstances. Of course not! What you would rather have? Someone telling you that there is no god or a warm meal or maybe life saving surgery? If the Doctors without Borders saved the life of someone's son son, don't you think that offers hope and lifted that father out of his sorrow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Fred
How could the cold hard message of atheism have lifted those people out of their sorrow and gave them the encouragement to rebuild their nation.

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Old 05-15-2010, 04:20 PM   #208
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Well Hack & Lube you just had to make me go and get a quote on what Proton said didn't you?
Well here it is
"How absurd can you be?"

"Do you think Doctors Without Borders is like the Christian charities, preaching atheism to the victims while providing aid? "

Why would DWB be preaching atheism? Why not Christianity? Why not Jehovah's Witness? Why use them as an example when they are neither theist or atheist?
The inference was on atheism which they are not so I thought I would point that out. It was a poor example and moot to the discussion.
I never claimed that only Christian charities were giving in Haiti. I did however mention the lack of any acknowledged Atheist charities. To date none have been shown as DWB is definitely not on that list as they themselves have declared their neutrality on such issues.
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:24 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Fred View Post
Well Hack & Lube you just had to make me go and get a quote on what Proton said didn't you?
Well here it is
"How absurd can you be?"

"Do you think Doctors Without Borders is like the Christian charities, preaching atheism to the victims while providing aid? "

Why would DWB be preaching atheism? Why not Christianity? Why not Jehovah's Witness? Why use them as an example when they are neither theist or atheist?
The inference was on atheism which they are not so I thought I would point that out. It was a poor example and moot to the discussion.
I never claimed that only Christian charities were giving in Haiti. I did however mention the lack of any acknowledged Atheist charities. To date none have been shown as DWB is definitely not on that list as they themselves have declared their neutrality on such issues.
Any secular organization that is non affiliated with a religion is what we are talking about here. They do not prosetylize to anyone. Maybe we should stop using the terminology here and just refer to it as secularism.

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Old 05-15-2010, 04:24 PM   #210
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For me a true atheist shouldn't be bothered what other people believe as they have made up their minds.
For me a true christian shouldn't be bothered with what other people believe as they have already made up their mind.

You quit pushing your particular brand of superstition on me and I'll quit asking you to stop. Sound fair?
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:33 PM   #211
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"Any secular organization that is non affiliated with a religion is what we are talking about here. They do not prosetylize to anyone. Maybe we should stop using the terminology here and just refer to it as secularism. "

Not at all. I dispute that. You just can't have them on your team just as neutral states do not participate in any proxy war by warring states. They are neutral plain and simple. It seems you lack the understanding of what that term means. They are non players my friend. They are not in the game. They are void, non participants.

They don't bat for the atheist team nor never will. Give it up. This is just dumb stubborness and the refusal to give ground to a point. They are neither theist nor atheist. Again I reiterate what atheist organisations helped in Haiti. There were none were there? Plain and simple so stop hitching your wagon in desperation to government and neutral agencies. You defile the very meaning of what such organisations stand for in your attempts to make them partisan players.
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:35 PM   #212
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For me a true christian shouldn't be bothered with what other people believe as they have already made up their mind.

You quit pushing your particular brand of superstition on me and I'll quit asking you to stop. Sound fair?

Funny but I don't seem to have any recollection of pushing anything on you RogueUnderoos. Could you tell me when that happened and quote chapter and verse please because I'm a little vague on the details.
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:44 PM   #213
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"Any secular organization that is non affiliated with a religion is what we are talking about here. They do not prosetylize to anyone. Maybe we should stop using the terminology here and just refer to it as secularism. "

Not at all. I dispute that. You just can't have them on your team just as neutral states do not participate in any proxy war by warring states. They are neutral plain and simple. It seems you lack the understanding of what that term means. They are non players my friend. They are not in the game. They are void, non participants.

They don't bat for the atheist team nor never will. Give it up. This is just dumb stubborness and the refusal to give ground to a point. They are neither theist nor atheist. Again I reiterate what atheist organisations helped in Haiti. There were none were there? Plain and simple so stop hitching your wagon in desperation to government and neutral agencies. You defile the very meaning of what such organisations stand for in your attempts to make them partisan players.
I have no interest in a war between team atheist and team theist as you seem to want. I'm not strictly atheist myself and my entire family is highly religious. I will gladly make concessions as to the benefits of faith. You are are just making absurd arguments believing that there is a side against you and it's us vs. them, a zero sum game where one will win and one will lose. This is not a game.

No one in this thread has claimed that these groups have any atheist agenda whatsoever. Not you, not Photon, not I. In fact we are all saying the same thing, that they are a neutral and secular organization. You are simply miscomprehending what people are writing and your follow-up arguments are all misconstrued based on your preliminary misunderstanding.

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Old 05-15-2010, 04:47 PM   #214
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Funny but I don't seem to have any recollection of pushing anything on you RogueUnderoos. Could you tell me when that happened and quote chapter and verse please because I'm a little vague on the details.
You told me how I should act (keep my mouth shut) because I don't agree with you.

I'm not sure about the chapter and verse, but if you scroll up a little, you'll find it.
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Old 05-15-2010, 05:00 PM   #215
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Excuse me but DWB is a neutral organisation and does not advocate any philosophical, religous, political or otherwise worldview. They would not be classified as atheist just as they would not be described as theist.
Um, that's what atheist means, not being theist. Atheist can comprise all kinds of philosophical, religious, political and other worldviews.

It's a secular organization not a religious one, as they say their actions are taken without any regard to any kind of theism.

I didn't claim they had an atheistic root, I just asked if since they don't have a theistic root if they are incapable of lifting other people out of their sorrow and encouraging them, because your implication seemed to be that without a religious root that that wasn't possible. And you avoided the questions (avoided a lot of questions).

DWB is a secular organization with no religious drive, are they are or are they not capable of lifting other people out of their sorrow and encouraging them?

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I would quote their preamble on their site describing their principles but my post would be wiped by administration.
Is that some kind of dig because your previous posts which violated the rules of the forum were removed? It's a bad thing that the site's administration tries to comply with the laws of the land? Is it a bad thing that the moderators try to ensure that the site owner doesn't get sued due to copyright violation because of the blatant disregard some posters show for the law?

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I'm afraid you can't calim them as batting for your team buddy because that pidgeon is grounded. It's wings have been clipped. It is sitting on it's nest awaiting flight orders.
See, it's that "us vs. them" mentality which is being fought against, it's a sad and backwards mindset.

And I like how you assume things about others, putting me on a "team", and saying I'm trying to claim someone else for a team when I did no such thing.
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Old 05-15-2010, 05:17 PM   #216
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They don't bat for the atheist team nor never will.
No one claimed they did, so you can stop fussing about it then.

Use the term secular then instead if this is causing you so much angst. DWB is a secular organization, not advocating a religious viewpoint, are they then incapable of providing comfort and encouragement to people because of their lack of a religious foundation?

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They are neither theist nor atheist.
Lol, there's no middle ground between the two. Simple question, "Do you believe there is a god or gods?". If you answer yes, then you are a theist, if not then you are atheist.

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Again I reiterate what atheist organisations helped in Haiti.
Define "atheist organizations". If you mean an organization with the non-belief in god as its foundation, well of course there wasn't any of those helping in Haiti, that's like asking what organizations with the non-belief in the tooth fairy as its foundation helped in Haiti!

It's such an absurd question. Atheists are simply people who do not believe there is a god, they aren't an organized group with a single professed worldview or a single professed philosophy, why would you expect to see an organization with goals and purposes rooted in a common set of principles when atheists don't have a common set of principles?

What you would expect to see is organizations like the Red Cross and Crescent organizations, Unicef, DWB, Amnesty International, etc who are secular in nature, who's actions and goals are not rooted in and grown from a particular religious group, but from a diverse set of worldviews.

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You defile the very meaning of what such organisations stand for in your attempts to make them partisan players.
Yay drama and hyperbole!
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Old 05-15-2010, 05:21 PM   #217
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That is an old chestnut T@T. Under further investigatiuon for any poster who actually wants to know the truth Hitler founded a state church and only those who adopted the Aryan belief were legitimite. That involved dressing up as priests etc but was an empty vessel without value. Just because a camel can behave like a horse and carry people like a horse does not qualify it to be a horse. Why then did Hitler persecute Evangelical Christians and why were they so prominent in the underground and assasination attempts against Hitler if he was such a good little Christian?

This old red herring appears with these videos in standard atheist web sites and this particular disinformation has been paraded around for years. This one won't stick fella. That dog just won't bark. It's got fleas.
Does it really matter what religion Hitler decided to take on?, even if I believed your conspiracy theory of dressing up people to look like catholics it still boils down to one thing...religion itself is the real "evil".

I know you didn't bother looking at the youtube vids(people who believe in fairy tales hate the truth) but maybe you should do some research on the Jasenovac camps before calling it a hoax, if you know the history of the Vatican's leaders you might recognize a few old faces from the past, either that or Hitler invented plastic surgery as well.

BTW...God is imaginary
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Old 05-15-2010, 05:31 PM   #218
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The discussion of what gods are exactly is pretty interesting and transcends a lot of the fluffy stuff regarding God is perfect, man is fallen business.

In my view, gods don't have reason. They don't need it. What defines a god is will, the will to power. Gods do not need to rationalize anything, they simply make it so. Humans are capable of this act as well and in classical and biblical texts you can see humans and gods engaging in this sort of fencing or battling of wills.

Think how many times in the Hebrew Scriptures that man and God engaged in a contest of wills. Think of how many times that humans won.
Pretty much.

There is no 'perfect' or 'imperfect' when it comes to God.
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Old 05-15-2010, 05:39 PM   #219
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yep
takes as much faith to believe we all came from a random explosion of stuff and eventually became people who have some idea of right and wrong, as it does to believe that a God made the universe and us, giving us souls and a sense of something bigger than us
Just wondering!

If God produced the big bang and made the universe, who made God?
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Old 05-15-2010, 05:45 PM   #220
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I think the answer, as usual is in the middle of all this.

Religion, atheism, the belief or disbelief in God, wanting to persecute people for their beliefs, or disbelief, etc, etc.....is all just a justification by mankind to exert power over other people.

Its a two-way street. For some, using religion as a tool to control people was the easiest way to exert that power, for others banning religion and killing anyone involved in any kind of religion was the easiest way to exert that power.

I know many religious people that are the nicest people in the world, and I have no doubt that many atheists, including a lot on here are genuine, decent, and very nice individuals.

I think its almost human nature to reach out to someone in need. I don't think that ability, or 'feeling'....is limited to atheists or religious folks. We all gave to the Haiti relief effort. Atheists and religious people alike.

I tend to stay out of these arguments because it often turns into a 'my side is better than your side' type deal. As a firm believer in the free will and ability for people to believe whatever they want I support every person who wants to be religious, and those that want to not be religious. I support the right to believe in a God, and the right to not believe in a God. I try not to attack people because of what they believe, atheist or theist alike. I think people on both sides of the coin are extremely guilty of 'attacking' each other simply because they disagree with a different viewpoint.

You can cite being rational, faith, reason whatever.......at the end of the day all it comes down to is the freedom to believe what you want to believe.

Because of that I support both secular and non-secular organizations. I recognize the work both religious(Christian and other) groups do, and I appreciate very much the work of organizations such as the WHO, DWB and many others. I think they all try their best to do good in the world.

After having read through this thread and MANY others in my 10 some years here at CP and in other forums I think a lot of people have a problem admitting that the OTHER side is quite capable of caring as much as they do.

Do atheists care less? Someone can be religious and be a stuck up fool. Just like someone can be atheist and stuck up. There are probably people on both sides of the coin that don't give to charities at all. In fact I know many religious people, devoutly religious people, some of them are fundamental zealots that don't give a dime to charities or other organizations that help those in need.

What I think a lot of religious people forget, especially those fundamental ones is that Jesus' biggest fight was with the Pharisees. Not with the 'heathens' or Gentiles. He was constantly clashing with those that considered themselves the 'blessed' and the ones who know everything. Those that were super religious.

But, people often choose exactly what they want to read, and ignore the rest. Hear what they want to hear and shut out the rest.

Atheists and fundamental religious people are both at fault for this. I prefer to call it being 'human.' Being atheist, especially these days is almost like a means to an end. To prove a point, make a stand type of deal. Something being religious has been for a long time.

When I read these threads and the many others we've had I often wonder what exactly the difference is between the atheists and the religious people.

From the outside looking it I could switch around a few words, and get the exact opposite meaning.

JMHO.

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