China needs to chill out. Big time.

[LouCypher]

A country the size of China pushing its populous towards maybe rebelling one day is a very scary possibility. Throughout history no matter how a government might try to censor and subjugate its own people once the wheels of change are in motion they can be very hard to stop but I don't expect we will see the breaking point for a long time.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by RT14

Calling me on a point is all fine and dandy, as I think I backed that up just fine. It's your ridiculous assumptions I have a problem with. Living in a vacuum? Pot, meet kettle. Maybe you should "grow up" and explore other avenues of your information other than just what the Japanese media jams down your throat. The media is biased no matter where it's from as far as I've seen.

I'll take my "biased" but FREE media and my personal experiences over your vacuum. When your sources of information are not free how can you trust them? At least I can pick and choose my sources as I feel fit.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by HOZ

The economy of China has greatly improved. Unfortunately, 900 million peasants outside of the towers of Beijing and Shanghai have had their lives only minutely improved but at a cost. Air, water and food quality is horrendous by any standards. China is going through the industrial revolution. Pick up a history book and see what it is like. That said. Communist China is an incredibly corrupt, brutal regime that subjugates its people that don't fall into line, sensors its media for obvious reasons, and intimidates it's neighbours economically and militarily.

I agree with you there... China is doing what developing countries do. Production factories produce alot of waste, but developing countries do that. I just find it incredibly hilarious to see all the armchair critics.

But you know what a country does after they've established themselves? They clean up their environment and improve environmental restrictions. China has done that over the past year. Again, I bring to the attention the plans for the eco-city Dongtan. China is getting to the point where they can afford to have stricter regulations on environment, which gives you an idea where China is at their stage of development to becoming a sustainable world power.

[RT14]

Originally Posted by HOZ

I suggest people read Will the Boat Sink the Water. Banned in China so youknow it must be good!!!

All bitter remarks aside, just because a book is banned in China doesn't make it factually accurate. Perhaps it's banned because it's entirely full of inaccuracies. I don't know as I haven't read it, but just saying that if all your arguments are stemming from this book I suggest you come here and see for yourself. I've yet to meet a western person who after being here, hasn't completely changed their views on how China is run. I'd wager you would too.

I'll take my "biased" but FREE media and my personal experiences over your vacuum. When your sources of information are not free how can you trust them? At least I can pick and choose my sources as I feel fit.

More assuming on your part is getting you nowhere. Who says I listen to the Chinese media? I know they aren't giving the full story so rarely do I watch or read news here. I get most of my information from the same sources you do. Believe it or not, we are able to see almost all the same stuff here as you do there. They even play the evening ABC and CBS news in the mornings on TV here. This sensorship you speak of is so grossly over-exaggerated but you have NO IDEA because apparently you refuse to believe anything but what you've read and seen from outside sources. I can't stress enough that if you actually get off your a$$ and come here yourself, you will change your views. I can almost guarantee it.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by HOZ

The economy of China has greatly improved. Unfortunately, 900 million peasants outside of the towers of Beijing and Shanghai have had their lives only minutely improved but at a cost. Air, water and food quality is horrendous by any standards. China is going through the industrial revolution. Pick up a history book and see what it is like. That said. Communist China is an incredibly corrupt, brutal regime that subjugates its people that don't fall into line, sensors its media for obvious reasons, and intimidates it's neighbours economically and militarily.

I agree with you, but a country's government, the living conditions of it's people and the people themselves are not all the same. The government is screwy alright, but that does not mean that Chinese people themselves are screwy, or that their social habits and behaviour is really screwy either. Criticisms of things like spitting, the lack of orderly lines, the tendency to interrupt people, but there's a give and take in any cultural exchange. There's plenty to like about Chinese culture too, just as there's plenty to dislike about other cultures.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by RT14

Again, completely misinformed arguments on your behalf. I have talked personally to many owners of houses or condos, some of which have had their property bought out by the government for different reasons and they were all compensated at full market value.

This came up in a class of mine with a student whose land had been taken by the government for a big project. He had no choice about selling the land, and was forced to relocate, yet everyone else in the class considered him to be incredibly lucky. The government paid a premium for his land, and with the money that the government paid he was able to move out of the country and start a life in Shanghai where he now works for VW in a good position with a high standard of living. The other people living near him who did not get their land 'stolen' are still living in the countryside at a much lower standard. He's pretty happy about having his land bulldozed. No private investors were interested in buying in that area, but the government paid him well.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by RT14

All bitter remarks aside, just because a book is banned in China doesn't make it factually accurate. Perhaps it's banned because it's entirely full of inaccuracies. I don't know as I haven't read it, but just saying that if all your arguments are stemming from this book I suggest you come here and see for yourself. I've yet to meet a western person who after being here, hasn't completely changed their views on how China is run. I'd wager you would too.

More assuming on your part is getting you nowhere. Who says I listen to the Chinese media? I know they aren't giving the full story so rarely do I watch or read news here. I get most of my information from the same sources you do. Believe it or not, we are able to see almost all the same stuff here as you do there. They even play the evening ABC and CBS news in the mornings on TV here. This sensorship you speak of is so grossly over-exaggerated but you have NO IDEA because apparently you refuse to believe anything but what you've read and seen from outside sources. I can't stress enough that if you actually get off your a$$ and come here yourself, you will change your views. I can almost guarantee it.

Since you haven't clued into this yet.....

I have been there. I have many friends who live and work there. I have friends who travel there many times in a year to do business. My opinions are ones from a person who has experienced China first hand. Yes it was much better than I imagined it to be but it wasn't long before I could see past the window dressing and see the corruption and outright hypocracy.

So yes I know you can get ABC, CNN, BBC and such. I also know that you will get that coverage as long as China is seen a bright light. No negativity is tolerated and is sensored. People are intimidated into silence.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

There's plenty to like about Chinese culture too, just as there's plenty to dislike about other cultures.

Without a doubt. Plenty to like and want to go back to.

[RT14]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Since you haven't clued into this yet.....

I have been there. I have many friends who live and work there. I have friends who travel there many times in a year to do business. My opinions are ones from a person who has experienced China first hand. Yes it was much better than I imagined it to be but it wasn't long before I could see past the window dressing and see the corruption and outright hypocracy.

So yes I know you can get ABC, CNN, BBC and such. I also know that you will get that coverage as long as China is seen a bright light. No negativity is tolerated and is sensored. People are intimidated into silence.

Ok, well let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that then, shall we? In fact, I can't even say I disagree with everything you've said, but the way you said it came off quite insulting to me. Trust me, I too criticize the Chinese government and their way of doing things my fair share as well, but I also understand there is a reason behind it all and IMO, like Phanuthier said, they are at the early stages of coming out of their oppressive state and will eventually probably be the world leader in a lot of areas they are so heavily criticized for now. It takes time to do things right and while they are still in the early stages, they are moving in the right direction and I believe they have a very meticulously thought out plan on how to have things run smoothly and are patient enough to see it through. Not much pressure to make immediate and drastic changes when you know you won't be voted out in 4 or 8 years. lol Like my mother always used to say, "If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to have time to fix it?" lol Funny how that applies to even the biggest situations.

[Domer]

Here is another evidence of where this violent monks are coming from.

http://www.tibetcustom.com/article.p...80328193918219

Its all a trap and now the real monks who started the protests are locked up in the monastery and denied access to food and water.

Domer

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by RT14

Ok, well let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that then, shall we? In fact, I can't even say I disagree with everything you've said, but the way you said it came off quite insulting to me. Trust me, I too criticize the Chinese government and their way of doing things my fair share as well, but I also understand there is a reason behind it all and IMO, like Phanuthier said, they are at the early stages of coming out of their oppressive state and will eventually probably be the world leader in a lot of areas they are so heavily criticized for now. It takes time to do things right and while they are still in the early stages, they are moving in the right direction and I believe they have a very meticulously thought out plan on how to have things run smoothly and are patient enough to see it through. Not much pressure to make immediate and drastic changes when you know you won't be voted out in 4 or 8 years. lol Like my mother always used to say, "If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to have time to fix it?" lol Funny how that applies to even the biggest situations.

Fair enough.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by RT14

Ok, well let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that then, shall we? In fact, I can't even say I disagree with everything you've said, but the way you said it came off quite insulting to me. Trust me, I too criticize the Chinese government and their way of doing things my fair share as well, but I also understand there is a reason behind it all and IMO, like Phanuthier said, they are at the early stages of coming out of their oppressive state and will eventually probably be the world leader in a lot of areas they are so heavily criticized for now. It takes time to do things right and while they are still in the early stages, they are moving in the right direction and I believe they have a very meticulously thought out plan on how to have things run smoothly and are patient enough to see it through. Not much pressure to make immediate and drastic changes when you know you won't be voted out in 4 or 8 years. lol Like my mother always used to say, "If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to have time to fix it?" lol Funny how that applies to even the biggest situations.

What is the reasoning behind their oppression of the people of Tibet? Or the Falun Gong?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

This came up in a class of mine with a student whose land had been taken by the government for a big project. He had no choice about selling the land, and was forced to relocate, yet everyone else in the class considered him to be incredibly lucky. The government paid a premium for his land, and with the money that the government paid he was able to move out of the country and start a life in Shanghai where he now works for VW in a good position with a high standard of living. The other people living near him who did not get their land 'stolen' are still living in the countryside at a much lower standard. He's pretty happy about having his land bulldozed. No private investors were interested in buying in that area, but the government paid him well.

Oh, just as long as he has a high standard of living elsewhere....

Must be nice when the government comes to your home and gives you no choice but to move out.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by peter12

What is the reasoning behind their oppression of the people of Tibet? Or the Falun Gong?

England 3.0 or USA 2.0

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

England 3.0 or USA 2.0

So China is morally the same as the UK and the USA?

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by peter12

So China is morally the same as the UK and the USA?

Perhaps he's pointing out the hypocracy of it when western countries (especially the U.S.) have similar oppression or imprisonment of people that is ambiguously illegal or unethical.

I'm not going to get into this debate but only say that both sides (China AND Tibet) and certain portions of both camps have their fare shares of "evil". China is an oppressive regime in many situations but they do not deserve the full blame that the Western media is giving them. Many Tibetan protesters engage in violence and guerilla tactics against China. The Dalai Lama himself is not exactly a "man of peace" if you look back into the history. He was part of the ruling class of feudal lords who subjugated and even enslaved the lower class Tibetans in their own form of an oppressive regime. Yes, the Dalai Lama is a religious figure but if you can see past that and into the violent, feudal history of Tibet (pre-China) you'll see that he's not exactly Ghandi - something which the western media and politicians seem to be overeager into thinking.

China is a target of convenience for western media outlets looking for easy stories and western politicians looking for easy PR. Why aren't people as eager to attack Putin and the Russian Federation for how they have oppressively and militarily reigned in Chechnya? How they have oppressed and killed Chechens and their native ethnic groups, religious freedoms, desires for independance? Is that not a similar analogue to the China-Tibet issue?

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Perhaps he's pointing out the hypocracy of it when western countries (especially the U.S.) have similar oppression or imprisonment of people that is ambiguously illegal or unethical.

yup HL that is exactly what i was trying to say

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

yup HL that is exactly what i was trying to say

So in other words you're trying to deflect the issue AWAY from what China is doing....and towards what the US is doing.

Strange, because the majority of those here who see a problem with what China is doing, don't even live in the US.

To me its a pretty lame attempt at justifying any sort of human rights violations.

Most of us are complaining about China as Canadians. There is nothing hypocritical about that.

[HOZ]

War of words continue....

China fires a broadside at Dalai Lama

Is China staging the violence?


Now China is in trouble! When you have raised the ire of a Trudeauian Liberal you know you are in for a tongue-lashing!!!!! Boy the letter writing will be furious!

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Azure

Oh, just as long as he has a high standard of living elsewhere....

Must be nice when the government comes to your home and gives you no choice but to move out.

Seriously, that's an idiotic response. Did you even read my post? The guy was able to experience a significant improvement in his quality of life because of the situation. A lot of people in the countryside around his area apparently consider it a pretty lucky thing to find the government needs your land, just because it's an opportunity to move up in life.

Besides, do you think those laws don't exist in Western countries? It's not just Chinese land that can get seized for civil projects you know.