Israel and Lebanon now fighting

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by calculoso

So... Israel is going after and hit military and government targets (in the vast majority of cases).

Hezbollah is going after civillian targets, albeit hit and miss.

Is that true? From what I've heard, almost all of the Lebanese deaths have been civilian.
Perhaps you have some source of information you could share that shows otherwise.

And Hezbollah has always been a bad guy. I don't think anyone here would call them good. The question is whether Isreal has sunk to their level and started to also target innocent civilains wtih more more capable weapons.

[CaptainCrunch]

It makes it a little lopsided if your including the 6 days that this conflict has taken place. But you do have to factor in the amount of casualties that Israel has taken from Hezbollah and Hamas through rocket attacks, suicide bombings and other actions.

Conversely you also have to take into accout civilian casualties in Gaza and other areas, but I think it would even out fairly quickly.

Just my two cents.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Is that true? From what I've heard, almost all of the Lebanese deaths have been civilian.
Perhaps you have some source of information you could share that shows otherwise.

And Hezbollah has always been a bad guy. I don't think anyone here would call them good. The question is whether Isreal has sunk to their level and started to also target innocent civilains wtih more more capable weapons.

When Hezbollah puts thier key assets and personal in civillian areas, collateral damage is going to happen. However if Israel was actually targeting Civillians with the intent of sowing fear and death, then they're doing a poor job of it if only 150 some odd civillians have been killed.

[Hakan]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

It makes it a little lopsided if your including the 6 days that this conflict has taken place. But you do have to factor in the amount of casualties that Israel has taken from Hezbollah and Hamas through rocket attacks, suicide bombings and other actions.

Conversely you also have to take into accout civilian casualties in Gaza and other areas, but I think it would even out fairly quickly.

Just my two cents.

It absolutely would not even out at all. Palestinians have endured FAR more casualties than Israelis.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

When Hezbollah puts thier key assets and personal in civillian areas, collateral damage is going to happen. However if Israel was actually targeting Civillians with the intent of sowing fear and death, then they're doing a poor job of it if only 150 some odd civillians have been killed.

only 150? 150 in 6 days is not a lot?
I'll have to disagree there. Yes collateral damage is going to happen, but they should make more efforts to minimize it. They havn't shown or voiced any concern for civilians.

if 150 is not a lot, I guess the Hezbollah attacks aren't a lot either. After all, their missiles that killed 8 the yesterday was one of the worst attacks againt Isreal for Hezbollah ever.
how can 8 one way be a lot, but 150 the other way isn't?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

only 150? 150 in 6 days is not a lot?
I'll have to disagree there. Yes collateral damage is going to happen, but they should make more efforts to minimize it. They havn't shown or voiced any concern for civilians.

if 150 is not a lot, I guess the Hezbollah attacks aren't a lot either. After all, their missiles that killed 8 the yesterday was one of the worst attacks againt Isreal for Hezbollah ever.
how can 8 one way be a lot, but 150 the other way isn't?

Because if you drop 500lb laser pointed missiles at civilian targets you kill alot of people.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Hakan

It absolutely would not even out at all. Palestinians have endured FAR more casualties than Israelis.

ok, after doing a little digging, I'll step back on those comments

According to the IDF, there were 1048 Israeli's killed since Sept 2000 including 121 children under the age of 12.

According to the Red Cresent there were between 3000 and 4 thousand Palestines killed, with 761 children under 12, and 248 assasinations.

So yes there are more Palestines being killed. However both numbers are pretty gross.

Now one factor that I'm still going to have to attrbute to is how many Palestines were killed due to members of extremist parties hiding within the Civillian structure. There has to be some further blame assigned to that.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

only 150? 150 in 6 days is not a lot?
I'll have to disagree there. Yes collateral damage is going to happen, but they should make more efforts to minimize it. They havn't shown or voiced any concern for civilians.

if 150 is not a lot, I guess the Hezbollah attacks aren't a lot either. After all, their missiles that killed 8 the yesterday was one of the worst attacks againt Isreal for Hezbollah ever.
how can 8 one way be a lot, but 150 the other way isn't?

Your walking around what I'm trying to say here. If Israel was going out of thier way to inflict harm, there would be thousands of Lebanese citizens dead or wounded. Civilian structures don't do well against large calibre artillary.

Watching the news last night, one of the things that stuck out for me was that a lot of the casualties were caused by Israel shelling Hezbollah structures in populated areas causing damage to the buildings around them.

[Blaster86]

http://middleeast.ytmnd.com/ to lighten the mood... I hope...

[Cube Inmate]

This whole thing would be easily solved if only the middle-east factions understood NHL hockey. They could simply review the past NHL lockout for some pertinent advice. Most of us will agree that both the NHL owners and the NHLPA were at fault for the lousy state of the league's finances. Unfortunately, certain people took longer than others to realize that it wasn't about "fault" -- it was about saving the league (or lives and civilizations, as the case may be). It was inevitable that the NHL owners would win the dispute, as they controlled the capital. Similarly, it is inevitable that Israel will continue to exist because they control both the military power and have the strongest portion of the international community behind them.

The Arabs, as did the NHLPA, might try to stave off the inevitable, but it's obvious that the only result will be increased losses for both sides, and not an outright victory. We can only hope that eventually a few rational people will come to power and overpower the irrational elements who deny the obvious. As we've seen, the league and the PA are co-existing quite well right now after that very thing happened.

A striking difference, I suppose, is that Chris Chelios was never likely to kill the NHLPA executive when they started to diverge from his desired path. Unfortunately, it appears that Islamic radicals aren't endowed with the same sense of restraint. While a majority of Arab/Islamic** people might desire peace, the radicals are willing to kill for their position whereas the moderates aren't.

**Note** I realize that not all Muslims are Arabs, and vice-versa, but I choose to use the terms interchangeably here as it is apparent that virtually every enemy of Israel is either Arab, Muslim, or both.

[Lucky boy]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

hahaha, good stuff


edit: Doh, owned by the start of a new page

[Nehkara]

Earlier in the day, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he would consider a ceasefire if Hezbollah agreed to pull back from the Lebanese border, release two Israeli soldiers and end rocket attacks on Israel.

Olmert, in an impassioned address to the Knesset, said Israel would show no mercy on militant organizations that attack Israeli cities and towns.

"We are not looking for war or direct conflict but, if necessary, we will not be frightened by it," he said.

The enemy is encountering a unified people standing shoulder to shoulder, Olmert said.

"Citizens of Israel, there are moments in the life of a nation, when it is compelled to look directly into the face of reality and say: no more," he said.

"We are fighting for the right to normal life, like any individual, like any people, like any country, like any state."

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/nation...nd-troops.html

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Your walking around what I'm trying to say here. If Israel was going out of thier way to inflict harm, there would be thousands of Lebanese citizens dead or wounded. Civilian structures don't do well against large calibre artillary.

Watching the news last night, one of the things that stuck out for me was that a lot of the casualties were caused by Israel shelling Hezbollah structures in populated areas causing damage to the buildings around them.

I don't meen to walk around it.
You are saying that Isreal is not intentionaly targeting civilians and if they were, there would be many more dead. right?

I understand that, but I think Isreal could and should be doing a better job of minimizing civilian deaths. They may not be intentionaly targeting civilians, but they don't seem to care if they hit and kill civilians either.
I havn't heard a single quote from either side showing any regret about killing innocent people.
Perhaps they could use different weapons or a diffirent approach. I am no war expert, but to me 150+ civilian deaths in 5 days seems excesive under the circumstances. I certaintly don't think it is "measured".

[comrade]

Originally Posted by Jayems

And exactly how do you know i've not?

Your boneheaded comment, obviously. Or perhaps you'd like to explain why countries often send military forces and commision travel means for their citizens in war zones if leaving was so simple, as you suggest.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

I don't meen to walk around it.
You are saying that Isreal is not intentionaly targeting civilians and if they were, there would be many more dead. right?

I understand that, but I think Isreal could and should be doing a better job of minimizing civilian deaths. They may not be intentionaly targeting civilians, but they don't seem to care if they hit and kill civilians either.
I havn't heard a single quote from either side showing any regret about killing innocent people.
Perhaps they could use different weapons or a diffirent approach. I am no war expert, but to me 150+ civilian deaths in 5 days seems excesive under the circumstances. I certaintly don't think it is "measured".

Considering the amount of strikes made by Israel already, yes I would say they are doing their best to not hit innocent civilians.

However, Hezaballah has shown no sign of that and should be held accountable by the whole world. Sadly, most nations refuse to mention that fact.

[Nehkara]

Originally Posted by Azure

Considering the amount of strikes made by Israel already, yes I would say they are doing their best to not hit innocent civilians.

However, Hezaballah has shown no sign of that and should be held accountable by the whole world. Sadly, most nations refuse to mention that fact.

Yeah... a Hezbollah rocket shattered the windows of, but narrowly missed, a hospital in Safed, Israel. Five were wounded by that rocket.

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by comrade

Your boneheaded comment, obviously. Or perhaps you'd like to explain why countries often send military forces and commision travel means for their citizens in war zones if leaving was so simple, as you suggest.

Are these people being picked up at their house? No.
Heard of walking? I would assume.. but its just me.. thats what I would attempt to do. Walk, along with the other thousands, to the safest place.

Or is that too easy?

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

but I think Isreal could and should be doing a better job of minimizing civilian deaths. They may not be intentionaly targeting civilians, but they don't seem to care if they hit and kill civilians either.
I havn't heard a single quote from either side showing any regret about killing innocent people.
Perhaps they could use different weapons or a diffirent approach. I am no war expert, but to me 150+ civilian deaths in 5 days seems excesive under the circumstances. I certaintly don't think it is "measured".

Israel makes every effort to minimize civilian casualties while at the same time trying to protect their soldiers. What have they done - thousands of leaflets, written in arabic telling people to evacuate, have been dropped in areas with potential targets well in advance of any action. The citizenry knows where the Hezbolah centres are and knows that is where Israel is aiming.

Hezbolah, like most terrorist organizations, places their personel, bomb factories, training centres in civilian areas, not on any 'base camp'. They have no trouble hiding behind human sheilds, knowing that their enemies will think twice before shooting at them and not caring who takes the bullet for them.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Jayems

Are these people being picked up at their house? No.
Heard of walking? I would assume.. but its just me.. thats what I would attempt to do. Walk, along with the other thousands, to the safest place.

Or is that too easy?

I'm wondering about that too. Sure, the main highway to Syria is toast, but surely it is not the only road in Lebenon. I understand that most citizens living there would probably be in shelters (Like they are in Haifa and Northern Israel) but many would move to safer ground - there is an exodus of Israelis from Haifa to Tel-Aviv.

Help for foreigners is a different story. They run to the embassies hoping to get on that 'last helicopter off the roof'. I think most are bussed or flown onto farries taking them to Cypres to fly out. It just takes time.

[Lucky boy]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Israel makes every effort to minimize civilian casualties while at the same time trying to protect their soldiers. What have they done - thousands of leaflets, written in arabic telling people to evacuate, have been dropped in areas with potential targets well in advance of any action. The citizenry knows where the Hezbolah centres are and knows that is where Israel is aiming.

So because someone flew over your house and dropped a brochure onto your front lawn, it is now a justified target? Are you saying that if a bunch of Quebecers captured an American soldier, you would gladly move out of your house and leave all your possesions and start walking to Edmonton if you found a leaflet on your porch stating that a possible quebecer was living in your area?

I am not too sure how citizins are supposed to know that airports, highways, and powerplants are Hezbollah strongholds.

In my opinion, I find the leaflets insulting. The whole, "I warned I was going to bomb, it is your fault you died" mentality is just not right to me.

The irony of the whole thing is that you have one side who is trying as hard as possible to hit any target(civilian or not) and is doing a really poor job at it, and you have the other side who is trying not to hit any civilians and they also are doing a really poor job at it.