[Rumour] Friedman: Hanifin headed to market; Markstrom waiting

[Locke]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

It’s not quite that simple.

The first expansion to 12 teams was in 1967, well before Gretzky arrived

When the WHA teams later merged into the NHL, as I understand it, they brought 4 teams. In inter league exhibition play, I understand the WHA actually has a winning record against NHL teams, and brought across some pretty notable names that didn’t dilute the talent pool

Hmm....I think theres still a case to be made there.

Most of the 'Pros' were barely professionals in any sense of the word. Then they expanded and had to fill out a crapload more rosters.

Goalies were bad enough, but some of these clods could barely skate...when they were sober.

Look at the NHL right now. A crappy 4th line Grinder or 7/8 Dman is still an Elite Athlete.

Look at the NHL in the 70s/80s...I cant even skate and I could have made the team.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Locke

Hmm....I think theres still a case to be made there.

Most of the 'Pros' were barely professionals in any sense of the word. Then they expanded and had to fill out a crapload more rosters.

Goalies were bad enough, but some of these clods could barely skate...when they were sober.

Look at the NHL right now. A crappy 4th line Grinder or 7/8 Dman is still an Elite Athlete.

Look at the NHL in the 70s/80s...I cant even skate and I could have made the team.

Articles have been written about adjusted points based on different era's, and Gretzky and Lemieux are head and shoulders above everyone (with Bobby Orr close behind, although injuries derailed him).

[Locke]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Articles have been written about adjusted points based on different era's, and Gretzky and Lemieux are head and shoulders above everyone (with Bobby Orr close behind, although injuries derailed him).

And I dont really want to get into all that. But if you fired up a DeLorean and dumped 20-year old Crosby into the 1984 NHL he'd probably ratchet up a 400 point season and make all NHL records look quaint.

[bluejays]

Seriously, those who remember the 80s as great hockey have to go back and watch the “skill”. It was like watching today’s B division men’s leagues. The goaltenders were utterly terrible. Today’s athletes are incredible in comparison. McDavid and Crosby and MacKinnon are insanely good side by side. 20 years from now I wouldn’t be surprised if the average player is Pasternak and your best player is McDavid with the ability to hit.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Locke

And I dont really want to get into all that. But if you fired up a DeLorean and dumped 20-year old Crosby into the 1984 NHL he'd probably ratchet up a 400 point season and make all NHL records look quaint.

That's kind of the common belief but then you look at, for example, Mark Messier averaged a point per game in 84-85 and then in 2000-01 a 40-year-old version of himself had 67 points in 82 games.

Highest scoring season in NHL history 1992-93, Jaromir Jagr had 94 points in 81 games and in 2015-16 he had 66 points in 79 games at age 43.

Selanne's another one, sure he scored 76 goals in 92-93 but he also had 48 at age 36 and 31 in 73 games at age 42 in 2011-12. You'd think if you could transport 92-93 Teemu to 2011-12 he'd score 50 easily.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Seriously, those who remember the 80s as great hockey have to go back and watch the “skill”. It was like watching today’s B division men’s leagues. The goaltenders were utterly terrible. Today’s athletes are incredible in comparison. McDavid and Crosby and MacKinnon are insanely good side by side. 20 years from now I wouldn’t be surprised if the average player is Pasternak and your best player is McDavid with the ability to hit.

Its the same thing as my parents' friends telling me that hockey 'peaked' in the late 70s and early 80s.

Sit down and watch 60 minutes of that crap. I dare you.

[sketchyt]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Seriously, those who remember the 80s as great hockey have to go back and watch the “skill”. It was like watching today’s B division men’s leagues. The goaltenders were utterly terrible. Today’s athletes are incredible in comparison. McDavid and Crosby and MacKinnon are insanely good side by side. 20 years from now I wouldn’t be surprised if the average player is Pasternak and your best player is McDavid with the ability to hit.

If you could take the worst AHL goaltender (heck maybe even WHL) and time machine that goalie back into that era with today's gear/techniques, the Vezina Trophy would be named after that person. You might not even need the gear.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Locke

Its the same thing as my parents' friends telling me that hockey 'peaked' in the late 70s and early 80s.

Sit down and watch 60 minutes of that crap. I dare you.

Whenever I watch the 89 finals or the Flames Oilers game 7 Smith game I’m amazed at the difference in game play.

That said I think Lemieux would dominate even today. Gretzky - not so sure.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Whenever I watch the 89 finals or the Flames Oilers game 7 Smith game I’m amazed at the difference in game play.

That said I think Lemieux would dominate even today. Gretzky - not so sure.

Yeah, agreed. When Lemieux came back he was amazing. His ability to hold onto the puck and his vision of his teammates in modern day was really good. I share your thought on him having a leg up there vs 99.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

The pool was more diluted for Gretzky. The league went from 6 teams to 21 in a span of 12 years.

It was diluted because there was only one country that played NHL hockey back then (more or less).

In 85/86 the breakdown of players in the NHL was like this

Canada (522 players) who played 76% of the games
USA (101 players) who played 13.9% of the games
Sweden (30 players) who played 3.1% of the games
Finland (15 players) who played 1.8% of the games

Then a smattering of Czech's and Slovaks

Last year, in a 32 team league the numbers were

Canada (445 players ) playing 42.4% of the games
USA (297 players) playing 28.4% of the games
Sweden (107 players) playing 9.9% of the games
Russia (62 players) playing 5.8% of the games
Finland (55 players) playing 5.1% of the games

Czech's are at 3% of the games and then a bunch of other countries. The total number of Canadian players in the NHL is down by 77 players despite there being 253 more jobs than there were in the mid 80's.

The NHL would need about 38 teams just for Canada to have the same number of total players in the league that it did in 1986. And I suspect Canada's percentage will continue to drop as the years go on.

[D as in David]

The positive thing about this thread derailing is that there is only one trade thread now.

[Erick Estrada]

Mario Lemieux is still today the most impressive player I have ever seen play live.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Seriously, those who remember the 80s as great hockey have to go back and watch the “skill”. It was like watching today’s B division men’s leagues. The goaltenders were utterly terrible. Today’s athletes are incredible in comparison. McDavid and Crosby and MacKinnon are insanely good side by side. 20 years from now I wouldn’t be surprised if the average player is Pasternak and your best player is McDavid with the ability to hit.

You're right, there's way more skill now. What you're maybe not giving enough credit to, though, is just how ruthless the game was back then.

I'm not sure McDavid makes it out of preseaon in his first year if he's in 1985. Same with Mac and Sid.

Iggy, though... Iggy would have scored 70 every single year from like 82-87, before settling down into a nice comfortable string of 50 goals seasons for the next five or six years.

[habernac]

Everyone crapping on the hockey in the 80s forgets how many hooks and hacks those guys had to go through. Yes, today’s game is better, but all of those greats from yesteryear would still be great today, especially with modern training thrown in.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

You're right, there's way more skill now. What you're maybe not giving enough credit to, though, is just how ruthless the game was back then.

I'm not sure McDavid makes it out of preseaon in his first year if he's in 1985. Same with Mac and Sid.

Iggy, though... Iggy would have scored 70 every single year from like 82-87, before settling down into a nice comfortable string of 50 goals seasons for the next five or six years.

I don’t know about the ruthlessness. There was the code where sideshow fighters like Probert would fight other fighters, but the skilled guys would more or less move above freely. The bench clearing brawls and stuff took place but today’s player is so much better than they were back then. The sport was in its infancy back then at the pro level so I get why it was the case. They could hold the puck for ages. Today you hold it for two seconds max. It’s so much more fast paced and a much higher bar.

[Paulie Walnuts]

I wasn't born or too young at the time to even remember what 80's hockey was like. I grew up watching hockey in the 90's so maybe the comment of, one of best player we have ever seen is recency biased.

Mario is probably the best talent ever. McDavid is right up there with him. His speed and skill is on a different level. Hey may not be a winner, great leader, has no personality but that doesn't mean he isn't super talented. Who is the last player that had the type of speed and ability to make plays at that top end? Bure?

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by bluejays

The sport was in its infancy back then at the pro level...

The NHL's first season was in 1917.

And if you think the players in the 80s would have just stood around and watched McDavid skating full speed with his head down without putting him in a hospital... I mean...

Gretzky would be the first to tell you he survived because he wasn't a fast skater, and he kept his head up and on a swivel at all times (that was about 60% of it, the other 40% was because Cement Head was usually out there with him). Actually... that alone should tell you how ruthless it was in the 80s. Gretzky literally had a full-time enforcer on his wing for like 6 seasons.

[madmike]

Originally Posted by habernac

Everyone crapping on the hockey in the 80s forgets how many hooks and hacks those guys had to go through. Yes, today’s game is better, but all of those greats from yesteryear would still be great today, especially with modern training thrown in.

This is bang on. It was a completely different game. Obstruction was an accepted part of the sport back then.

And for the goalies especially, the equipment was much worse than it is today. Gloves, blockers and pads were all smaller, while at the same time being heavier - especially the pads. Goalies covered less space and had a harder time moving around.

[sketchyt]

Originally Posted by madmike

And for the goalies especially, the equipment was much worse than it is today. Gloves, blockers and pads were all smaller, while at the same time being heavier - especially the pads. Goalies covered less space and had a harder time moving around.

None of this would matter too much with the technique and positioning in today's game.

In a pre-butterfly/blocking era, the best goalie in that time period would get absolutely annihilated in today's game with all the gear they want.

Even in the Garth Snow oversized equipment days, those goalies would likely not see the success they did.

The position has fundamentally and philosophically changed so much it's not even recognizable.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by bluejays

I don’t know about the ruthlessness. There was the code where sideshow fighters like Probert would fight other fighters, but the skilled guys would more or less move above freely. The bench clearing brawls and stuff took place but today’s player is so much better than they were back then. The sport was in its infancy back then at the pro level so I get why it was the case. They could hold the puck for ages. Today you hold it for two seconds max. It’s so much more fast paced and a much higher bar.

Naw. No one was moving about freely. Every player was fair game, especially for a big open ice hit to the head, which was considered fair game and entirely the fault of the player who wasn't look out for it. The only thing that remotely kept the stars safe was having their own deterrents.