[PGT] Dec 11, 2023 - Flames lose: Avs 6 - Flames 5

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

From 2019-2022 he was 11th in Even Strength point in the NHL with 121, one behind Tkachuk at 122, and 8 behind Gaudreau who had 129. Barkov was 25th with 105 points.

Once again he has been terrible for the Flames, but no reason to start all this revisionist history that somehow he was a terrible player for the Panthers.

He was a top 10 winger in the league for the Panthers and was an elite point producer at 5v5, on the PP, and at 3v3.

From 2019-2022

- 5V5: 121 (11th)
- PP: 91 (3rd)
- 3V3: 13 (1st)

It's crazy how none of that has worked in Calgary. Not the 5v5, not the PP, and not 3v3 in overtime.

Most likely thing is that the aging curve hit him and it hit him hard. He doesn't have the skating or agility to be an elite NHLer anymore and that has changed from his last season in Florida. He's a poor skater now and because of that can't create any time or space for himself to make a play.

Holy.

Prior to the 2019 season, he played 4 straight seasons averaging 55pts playing with Barkov and Jagr.

During the 18-19 season, they started to transition him off the top line. The top line then was Barkov and Dadonov and third spot was a rotation of Huberdeau, Hoffman and Bjugstad. Immediate jump from 69 points with Barkov and Jagr the year before to 92 points after starting to get moved down.

Actually, I think the 69 point year might have been the year of Huberdeau with Barkov and Trochek (not Jagr), but regardless, it was still an almost 30 point jump once he started to get second line exposure.

During the 19-20 season, he was back on the top line again (reward for the 92 pt season) playing the entire year with Barkov and Dadonov. 78 points, but it was shortend season, so still pretty comparable to his 92 point season. The big problem I remember from that year though was Dadonov falling off a cliff. Huberdeau racked up a pile of apples, but the entire line as a unit took a hit.

In the 20-21 season was the end of Dadonov in Florida, but the start of Huberdeau playing exclusively on the second line. Barkov was now paired with Verhaeghe and the other wing was mostly Duclair but also I think Mason Marchment saw some time on that line too after they got him from TO. Huberdeau, however, spent the season with Hornqvist and Wennberg. (I remembered Hornqvist, because I liked him in PIT so it was interesting to see him paired up with Huberdeau in his first year in Florida. I had to look up Wennberg though, because I couldn't remember who the third was on that line). Anyway, 61 points in 55 games playing exclusively on the second line.

For the magical 21-22 season, he was now a full-fledged second line player, and he smoked the rest of eastern conference with 115 points playing exclusively with Bennett and Duclair on the second line.

Then he comes to Calgary, signs a franchise-player contract and low and behold, goes back to averaging 50 points a season again as we try repeatedly to make him one of the center pieces of our offence.


Summary

The four best seasons of his career were season in which he was either transitioning to being a second line player, or was actually a second line player. His two best seasons were seasons when he was at least 3/4 of the time on the second line, and his best season was 100% on the second line.

The worst seasons of his career was when he 100% considered a top line player, playing with Jagr and Barkov in Florida and then the myriad of ways we've tried to make him a top line player here in Calgary.

I don't know what else to say. You're just grabbing his 4 best years and then looking at total ice time (as if nobody ever gets hurt or something)... but I'm telling you how he was ACTUALLY used and what lines he ACTUALLY played on... because, during the Forsberg/Sakic era, Quebec/Colorado was my favourite non-Calgary team, and I watched them win their first cup against the Cinderella Florida Panthers, who quickly became my second favourite non-Calgary team... and so I've tended to pay attention to Florida throughout the years since.

Like, I'm not lying when I tell you that my impression of Huberdeau through his career was first excitement when he was drafted, followed by trepidation in his rookie/sophomore seasons to outright thinking he was bust up untill he started putting up points after being moved away from the top line.

I'll admit I was excited when we got him, because I honestly thought he be a great fit with Lindholm... but low and behold, it's just reminded me of whatching him play with Jagr and Barky all over again.


Edit: My own definition of a "middle-six" player is someone who is too talented (either offensively or defensively) to be a bottom six player, but isn't able to produce on the top line. Now, you can argue with me about my definition of a middle six player, but you cannot argue with me that Huberdeau is a top line player. Also, my definition of a top-six player is someone who for all intents and purposes would be a top line player, but is playing on the second line most of the time (because they're playing behind someone better at their position, or because they're young and getting experience etc). So using my definitions, Huberdeau is a middle six player, and has been (or at least should have been) throughout his career. Again, you can argue those definitions, but you cannot argue that (whether it's the added pressure of being on the top line, or it's the added defensive focus the top line gets) he is not a top line player in any regard. Not even replacement-level top line.

[SuperMatt18]

I never argued that he wasn't playing on the second line, lots of good players play on second lines.

The argument was he was never a middle 6 forward in the way you were trying to downplay him. He was generally still always top 3 in EV TOI, and he was producing at a top 10 clip at 5v5, PP, and 3v3.

I know how he was used, I didn't need you to explain it to me.

Was he an elite play driving forward - nope. His underlying stats were never great and he was never really a guy that was a huge play driver. But he was a guy that could produce points and generate offense with the best in the game when used correctly. He probably wasn't ever worth $10.5M due to his flaws, but he should easily have been able to continue his point per game page that he's been at for a while, and should have been at least worth around $9M.

And it's not just grabbing his best seasons...it's the 5 seasons immediately before coming to Calgary, which generally coincide with the prime of a players career. What happened when he was 22 back in 2015/2016 is irrelevant to his play now. If you want to go back further he has 554 points in his last 554 games in Florida if we go all the way back to 2014-15 when he was 21 years old, which is still 13th in the NHL in that time frame.

Either way you slice it calling him a "middle 6 forward" is ridiculous. He never played third line, he was always at worst a top 6 forward.

[dino7c]

Guy has the NHL assists record at his position...all time

lets not get ridiculous

also, Tkachuk has 5 goals

[ComixZone]

Listening to After Burner from last night, and they mention Raz as a potential candidate to go to the All Star game from the Flames this year briefly...

...what if we send Zary, as a rookie? I think it should be Zary.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Trade Lindholm, get a late first-round pick.

Trade Hanifin, get a mid first-round pick.

Enter the draft with picks ~5, 15, and 25.

Draft Cayden Lindstrom, Carter Yakemchuk, and Tij Iginla.

Check back next week for another edition of "How to rebuild the Flames in three years"

Lindholm is so underrated, it's not funny. He might not score goals or carry the first line the way most Flames fans want, but man, the way he wins battles in both ends of the ice as a centerman is priceless!

What the Flames need to do is get as much as they can for Hanifin and Tanev and start rebuilding their D with the remaining defencemen and via draft/trade/free-agency.

The other two guys they can trade for draft picks are:

Markstrom - likely need salary retention to get higher end prospects
- Vladar is a better goalie for the Flames going forward: salary, term-wise, and for tandem with Wolf during the rebuilding process.

Coleman - get a prospect and maybe a draft pick in addition to freeing up some salary cap. If Flames need to retain $1M cap to get better prospects/picks back - do it.

Time to really consider proper rebuild for this team.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Listening to After Burner from last night, and they mention Raz as a potential candidate to go to the All Star game from the Flames this year briefly...

...what if we send Zary, as a rookie? I think it should be Zary.

I don't think it should be Andersson...I haven't loved his game at times.

Weegar, Coleman, or Zary would be better picks than Andersson for sure. If Kadri keeps his strong play for the next month too then he probably gets consideration.

[Toonage]

If the team gets to choose I'd hope they'd send Zary. Kid has earned it. Probably love to go too, unlike some vet who'd rather just hit the beach.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I never argued that he wasn't playing on the second line, lots of good players play on second lines.

The argument was he was never a middle 6 forward, he was generally still always top 3 in EV TOI, and he was producing at a top 10 clip at 5v5, PP, and 3v3.

I know how he was used, I didn't need you to explain it to me.

Was he an elite play driving forward - nope. His underlying stats were never great and he was never really a guy that was a huge play driver. But he was a guy that could produce points and generate offense with the best in the game. He probably wasn't ever worth $10.5M due to his flaws, but he should easily have been able to continue his point per game page that he's been at for a while.

And it's not just grabbing his best seasons...it's the 5 seasons immediately before coming to Calgary, which generally coincide with the prime of a players career. What happened when he was 22 back in 2015/2016 is irrelevant to his play now.

Either way you slice it calling him a "middle 6 forward" is ridiculous. He never played third line, he was always at worst a top 6 forward.

Ok, well that's fair, and it sounds more like the problem is with my definition of a middle six forward (which doesn't really have anything to do with playing on the third line, but it accounts for players playing on the third line because of the same reasons a top six player would be playing on the second line).

Top six are either top line players or second line players that would otherwise be top line players but are on the second line becuse there's someone better at their position playing ahead of them, or they're young and getting experience, etc. They're just essentially first line players.

Middle six are either second line players or third line players that would otherwise be second line players but are on the third line becuse there's someone better at their position playing ahead of them, or they're young and getting experience, etc. They're just essentially second line players.

Bottom six is just like the first two, except they're essentially third line players.


I mean, I get that it would be weird to call Crosby "just" a top six player, even though he technically fits my definition of one... and maybe that's why it's weird to call Huberdeau "just" a middle six player. Although, with Huberdeau, he's very much a middle six player now, regardless of definitions.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I don't think it should be Andersson...I haven't loved his game at times.

Weegar, Coleman, or Zary would be better picks than Andersson for sure. If Kadri keeps his strong play for the next month too then he probably gets consideration.

Originally Posted by Toonage

If the team gets to choose I'd hope they'd send Zary. Kid has earned it. Probably love to go too, unlike some vet who'd rather just hit the beach.

I would expect it to be Kadri again, but I would vote for and love to see Zary get some exposure.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Ok, well that's fair, and it sounds more like the problem is with my definition of a middle six forward (which doesn't really have anything to do with playing on the third line, but it accounts for players playing on the third line because of the same reasons a top six player would be playing on the second line).

Top six are either top line players or second line players that would otherwise be top line players but are on the second line becuse there's someone better at their position playing ahead of them, or they're young and getting experience, etc. They're just essentially first line players.

Middle six are either second line players or third line players that would otherwise be second line players but are on the third line becuse there's someone better at their position playing ahead of them, or they're young and getting experience, etc. They're just essentially second line players.

Bottom six is just like the first two, except they're essentially third line players.


I mean, I get that it would be weird to call Crosby "just" a top six player, even though he technically fits my definition of one... and maybe that's why it's weird to call Huberdeau "just" a middle six player. Although, with Huberdeau, he's very much a middle six player now, regardless of definitions.

He's a middle 6 forward now but in Florida he clearly fits the definition of top 6 player you have above.

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I would expect it to be Kadri again, but I would vote for and love to see Zary get some exposure.

Could see Weegar too...probably more centers that I'd have ahead of Kadri than defenseman I'd have ahead of Weegar in terms of looking at the league as a whole and who you want to showcase.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Top six are either top line players or second line players that would otherwise be top line players but are on the second line becuse there's someone better at their position playing ahead of them, or they're young and getting experience, etc. They're just essentially first line players.

Yea, that is a really weird definition of top six but Huberdeau would still fit it for most of his time in Florida. According to your definition most teams do not have six top six forwards though.

Top 6 forwards are players that belong on the the top two lines. Middle six is generally for guys that bounce between the second and third lines. Dube is a middle six forward.

[FanIn80]

Ok well then I'll concede that maybe my definitions are out of whack, lol.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

Ok well then I'll concede that maybe my definitions are out of whack, lol.

I wish the Flames had six top six forwards according to your definition though haha

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I wish the Flames had six top six forwards according to your definition though haha

I wish we had 1 😂

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Listening to After Burner from last night, and they mention Raz as a potential candidate to go to the All Star game from the Flames this year briefly...

...what if we send Zary, as a rookie? I think it should be Zary.

I would send Coleman

[GioforPM]

The fact that Coleman is the frontrunner for Flames ASG entry is both fun and sad.

I think Weegar is equally as deserving though.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

https://twitter.com/user/status/1734403158355677271

How was this not called?