[PGT] Flames lose 2-1 to Toronto

[Savvy27]

I don't think the style the Flames play is old-fashioned at all. But the insistence on rolling four lines and even on playing your strongest players at C is causing problems.

I'd like to see a few changes for the end of the season, much like two years back when we finally got to see Gaudreau Lindholm Tkachuk finally play together.

1. Try out Huberdeau-Kadri-Lindholm - I know, I know, Lindholm is a good center. I don't think it matters that much. Have him and Kadri take faceoffs on their strong side and have the first guy back in the zone play low (which happens anyways). I just don't like when coaches spread out talent so much that they don't have a top line like the Flames did this year and have done in other frustrating seasons. Lindholm is awesome but this season has been a letdown. He is great with elite talent.

2. Play Dube at C. Full marks to Dube for a good season and upping his production, but I think he is a more effective C than he is on wing. He's a really talented guy and an elite skater. I want to see him anchor a third line and I think he can be groomed to take over for Backlund as a 2C or at least as a top checking C.

3. Don't mess with Coleman-Backlund-Mangiapane. Breaking up this line was baffling and one of the reasons the first half was a mess. They are a great line and the coaches didn't take advantage of established chemistry while chasing a landing spot for Huberdeau.

4. Let's see Poirier. He's had a surprisingly good season for the Wranglers and may very well be the future PPQB. Try him out for a few games with Tanev and then send him back for the Calder Cup chase. Maybe he forces his way onto the team next year. They need some guys on ELCs.

5. Sign Coronato when his season ends and get him some games before send him him to chase a Calder Cup. I'm excited at the thought of watching Pelletier, Zary, Coronato, Phillips, Poirier, Wolf, and Duehr on a playoff run. Give these guys a taste of the show and set them loose on the AHL.

Just some thoughts. I'm not too sour on the roster as I have said before. Just want to see a few new looks.

[Classic_Sniper]

Well that game pretty much demonstrated exactly what the Flames are missing didn’t it? In a tight checking game where time and space was at a premium, it ended up being the Mitch Marner and Auston Matthews show all night.

That’s exactly what elite superstars are supposed to do when their team is down and it’s what Darryl has been droning on about all season. Somebody has to step up and make a play and Marner and Matthews answered the bell and made plays all night.

It’s a shame too because the team wasted one of the best games Jacob Markstrom played all season. But when you don’t have gamebreakers to count on, that’s what you get, an endless string of one goal losses.

These guys just find ways to lose regardless of the situation or opponent. If the goalie stinks, the team can’t outscore their troubles. If the goalie is actually good, the team can’t get enough run support. If the team is down in the 3rd, they can’t find a way to tie it up. If they’re up in the 3rd, they choke the game away because they can’t bury that extra goal to put the game out of reach. It really is just a constant struggle for this team no matter what the circumstances are.

[AustinL_NHL]

The Bruins game was the perfect game to showcase the story of the Flames season:

Dominate. Lose because of goaltending and/or because we can't get one big goal.

Darryl Sutter has the Flames in a place in which they're generating chances at a great rate (6th in xGF/60) and limiting chances against at an incredible rate (2nd in xGA/60). I would, however, agree that they need to create more high danger chances.

It's not Darryl's fault that the Flames have had league worst/bottom 5 goaltending. In fact, it's because of him that the Flames are a top 5 defensive team in every metric. Even slightly-below average goaltending and the Flames are 1st in the Pacific. Average goaltending honestly probably gives the Flames an extra 15 points this season. I feel like I'm being ridiculous saying that, but also might be underselling how many points the goalies have cost the Flames.

Same goes for Huberdeau. Biggest point drop off in NHL history. For him, you can at least put a little bit of blame on Sutter, but at minimum it's still mostly on Huberdeau. The rest of the team is actually having pretty great years when you break them down individually, so it's fully Sutter's fault that Huberdeau is having the most pathetic debut season in NHL history but not to Sutter's credit that the rest of the players are having great years? Same thing for Huberdeau as with goaltending. If he's even average (PPG), that's an easy extra 10+ points in the standings & the Flames are 1st in the Conference or at least challenging for it.

Now, if both positions were average, the Flames are likely in the 2-4 range, putting them with CAR, NJ & TOR.

On top of that, as Ryan Pike pointed out the other night, if the Flames were just average in SH% and SV% this season, they'd have an extra 25.2 GF and 24.6 fewer goals against.

Like that's ####ed.

It's literally been a statistical anomaly of a season when you break it down.

Firing an incredible coach in Sutter because of literal horse #### luck and two important players going brain-dead for one season sounds like a great way to ruin something that's potentially still great with this roster.

I would, however, like to see Lindholm & Kadri swapped, and it's been driving be crazy for awhile that it hasn't happened.

[BoLevi]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Well that was an annoying game to attend. My hatred for Leafs fans is renewed and more intense than ever. Sorry Gio, I'll be cheering for Tampa.

I've made peace with this season. It's been a bad one. Personally, I don't think the roster is bad and I expect that they will be competitive next season regardless of what happens tomorrow, but I truly hope that management recognizes they have a great opportunity to sell a few pieces at exorbitant rates and takes advantage of it.

I want to see a top 9 forward moved out and Coronato signed at the very least. Turn the focus to next season and give us something to hope for. Washington and Nashville have shown the template, Flames need to follow suit

I'm not sure the market would be as strong tomorrow as it was a week ago. Maybe they can get something good from a bubble team with a GM that is feeling the heat.

[memphusk]

Its strange but I can really look at every angle and agree right now. Thats how ####ed this year has been.

[Goriders]

They have a 54% win percentage. They will have to up that to 75% to squeek in.

That’s not going to happen.

Nashville has a better chance now than the Flames.

Get what you can tomorrow for players not in your longterm plan and start the tryout for next year. It would be cool to see players like Zary, Wolf and Coronado when he’s finished his NCAA season.

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

I'm not sure the market would be as strong tomorrow as it was a week ago. Maybe they can get something good from a bubble team with a GM that is feeling the heat.

Agreed. It's alarming how many players already moved. All we can do is hope that teams like Carolina and Colorado want to match the arms race and that Buffalo and Ottawa are serious about making a push and have spent enough time building up their prospect base.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Ferarri

Yet in the off-season he was labelled as GM of the year. I don’t like these guys either but a very large majority of fans on this board applauded these moves (myself included). It didn’t work but at the time they were labelled as dynamite moves. How much can the GM do when the players severely underperform?

Also what’s the definition of success for a GM? Because if it’s winning a cup then all of his his colleagues except one fail at that goal as well.

There is definitely merit to get rid of him as a lot of his moves have failed. But he’s tried his best to keep this team competitive especially after a disastrous offseason that saw our two elite players leave.

My point is that I think a lot of his players let him down BIG time. Neale, Brouwer, Kadri, Huberdeau, Markstrom (to a certain extent - this season) but I’m willing to bet people welcomed these players (mixed feelings on Brouwer) and thought they were good acquisitions. They just didn’t perform to the level required. Is that the GM’s fault? I’m not so sure.

Fans on a message board aren't NHL GM calibre.

Neither is Treliving.

[Goriders]

Treliving would be doing a disservice to the organization to keep holding out hope on this season in my mind. There is no possible way they are going to win at a 75% clip down the stretch.

They shot themselves in the foot too many times this year. Eventually you run out of runway. Even Markstrom eluded to it during his post game interview.

Improve the team’s situation as much as you can tomorrow and start working towards next season. This team has a number of good players but for some reason they don’t fit well together. A number of under performers as well.

[gilligans_off]

I never wanted Kadri. I was pissed when our young core returned a pair of overrated soft puppy poo who caught lightning in a bottle last year. I can’t say I’m surprised how this unfolded... still disappointed regardless. Same song and dance this organization as subjected the fan base to my entire adult life. Not looking forward to years of continuous mediocracy.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Ferarri

Yet in the off-season he was labelled as GM of the year. I don’t like these guys either but a very large majority of fans on this board applauded these moves (myself included). It didn’t work but at the time they were labelled as dynamite moves. How much can the GM do when the players severely underperform?

Also what’s the definition of success for a GM? Because if it’s winning a cup then all of his his colleagues except one fail at that goal as well.

There is definitely merit to get rid of him as a lot of his moves have failed. But he’s tried his best to keep this team competitive especially after a disastrous offseason that saw our two elite players leave.

My point is that I think a lot of his players let him down BIG time. Neale, Brouwer, Kadri, Huberdeau, Markstrom (to a certain extent - this season) but I’m willing to bet people welcomed these players (mixed feelings on Brouwer) and thought they were good acquisitions. They just didn’t perform to the level required. Is that the GM’s fault? I’m not so sure.

It is definitely his fault that he keeps spending big on 29/30 year old free agents and not learning when he's been burned repeatedly by the age curve.

[Goriders]

Think the biggest question mark for next season is how do you get any value out of Huberdeau.

Followed by the goaltending situation.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by keenan87

Lose 5 out of their last 6. Enough sample size to make a decision Treliving?

I think enough sample size, but enough power?

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Think the biggest question mark for next season is how do you get any value out of Huberdeau.

Followed by the goaltending situation.

A new coach?

[Scooter]

Originally Posted by NewFan

It would be nice to trade a couple players for a couple 1st.
And play whole Wrangler team in NHL and send Flames to AHL rest of the season. Youngsters could get some experience and excitement.

Need to bring AHL coaching staff as well!

[Lanny_McDonald]

Another disappointing yet predictable outcome. As Blake Coleman said, the Flames are a really good team without a clue about how to win in the style of game being played in the NHL now. Darryl Sutter remains a dinosaur and makes the team play an ineffective game. This team will never improve so long as they play this mind-numbingly horrible system or ring it around the boards and take low percentage shots. The "prevent defeat" system just doesn't work. Time to move the hell on and send Sutter back to the farm, permanently. He's the biggest problem the organization has.

Sadly, the team has missed the window of opportunity to sell off some players and get some good draft assets for the 2023 draft, which is supposed to be the deepest in a couple decades. The concept of a solid plan just seems to be missing with this management group. I'm not sure what they do here, but at least one of Treliving or Sutter has to go and I would let the farmer go before the pizza magnate's kid. In a perfect world I think you clean house.

Unlike some I don't thinks are as bleak as they seem for the immediate future. I think there are some really good pieces in place and you just have to find the right mix, which Sutter has failed miserably to do. I think there are some pieces in the minors that can and will step in to quickly develop into keys players moving forward. Opportunity is important for these players to develop, and opportunity is not going to come with the current guy behind the bench.

I'm hoping Treliving looks at the depth chart board in his office and sees the obvious moves. Lewis and Lucic need to have new addresses by the end of the day. Backlund should be moved to the highest bidder to make room on the roster and free up some cap space. Tanev and possibly Hanifin should be dangled out there to see if you can scoop some draft picks in this draft. Prepare for the future that doesn't include these bodies.

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

Step 1 has to be removing Sutter. Since last all star break it's been clear his style of play is outdated, and in this league you now need to lean on your better players and aggressively line match. Rolling 4 lines only works if you are a stacked team, which the Flames are not.

Sutter's over reliance on old and slow vets that he likes, combined with a complete refusal to mix up lines that clearly aren't working has sunk the season.

Lucic's night should have been done after Marner absolutley embarrassed him for the tying goal. That play from a rookie would have them sent to the AHL.

Move Tofolli tomorrow and retain 50%. recover a first round draft pick and see how they finish off the year. Call up anyone and let Lucic and Lewis sit the rest of the season.

In some ways, Sutter reminds me of the old Soviet-era Russian coaches who never shortened their benches regardless of score.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by saillias

It is definitely his fault that he keeps spending big on 29/30 year old free agents and not learning when he's been burned repeatedly by the age curve.

Narratives.

He signed 3 UFAs in that age group in the last 3 years where you’d say he spent big on players that age. Kadri - burned maybe, it’s been half a season and while I haven’t loved his play, he’s on pace of a decent point season. Tanev - great signing. Markstrom - looked pretty good last year, not this year. Coleman - not burned. Plays to his contract.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Narratives.

He signed 3 UFAs in that age group in the last 3 years where you’d say he spent big on players that age. Kadri - burned maybe, it’s been half a season and while I haven’t loved his play, he’s on pace of a decent point season. Tanev - great signing. Markstrom - looked pretty good last year, not this year. Coleman - not burned. Plays to his contract.

He re-signed a guy who was going to be a UFA in Huberdeau who is in that age group, he also locked in Coleman longterm who is in that age group in the last 3 years.

Markstrom looked bad in year one as well, but he did have one good season.

For sure Brad sees the future in 30+ year old hockey players.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Corrected.

It doesn't make it any less incorrect. Winning is what makes you a good team. Yeah, I'm sure they do believe they're a good team...that's what pros do, but it's still a stupid thing to say. It should be "we believe we're a really good team" not "we're a really good team that doesn't know how to win"

That's a statement that invalidates itself within the sentence in which it was stated.

...and this is a stupid thing for me to pick at, but this entire season has been stupid.

It’s not a stupid statement. They are team that has just played two good game (one great in fact) against two top teams. And didn’t win. That sounds like a team that is (a) good and (b) and didn’t know how to finish and win.

Lots of people have said quite reasonably that this team is in the top of the league with good goaltending. So overall that means the team is good. With a single (correctable) flaw.