[News] Sean Monahan done for the season. Needs hip surgery. Will be ready for training camp

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The reason I say “still” is that Monahan has had, by any standard, his worst year ever, and he’s still scoring at the same pace as a whole bunch of guys at the same level of pay. There’s plenty scoring more who make more. There’s some who are on bargain contracts, like Scheifele or Barkov or Mackinnon that I don’t use much to compare.

Value is what the market says it is. Braden Schenn was sign to $6.5 just this season, after a 58 point season. Stastny was signed to $6.5 after a 40 point season. If RNH makes $6-7M next year after a 35 point season I guess we know.

Stastny actually had 53 points and a huge playoff before his contract, plus a reputation for playing a very good 200 foot game.


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[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The reason I say “still” is that Monahan has had, by any standard, his worst year ever, and he’s still scoring at the same pace as a whole bunch of guys at the same level of pay. There’s plenty scoring more who make more. There’s some who are on bargain contracts, like Scheifele or Barkov or Mackinnon that I don’t use much to compare.

Value is what the market says it is. Braden Schenn was sign to $6.5 just this season, after a 58 point season. Stastny was signed to $6.5 after a 40 point season. If RNH makes $6-7M next year after a 35 point season I guess we know.

Well Stastny and Schenn are out producing Monahan this year at goals per 60. Actually I'm not sure there is a center in the league making as much as Monahan that is behind him in that metric.

edit: I checked and Kopitar is behind him. Monahan at 252, Kopitar at 268.

I'm just really surprised you keep arguing that Monahan's current play justifies his salary.

IMO it's entirely about whether he is able to rebound and reagin his production without being a liability in his own zone.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well Stastny and Schenn are out producing Monahan this year at goals per 60. Actually I'm not sure there is a center in the league making as much as Monahan that is behind him in that metric.

edit: I checked and Kopitar is behind him. Monahan at 252, Kopitar at 268.

I'm just really surprised you keep arguing that Monahan's current play justifies his salary.

IMO it's entirely about whether he is able to rebound and reagin his production without being a liability in his own zone.

Monahan to me needs to become a competent 200 foot player.

He is not as he exists today. Will playing for Sutter help him gain that aspect to his game? For our sake, I hope so.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well Stastny and Schenn are out producing Monahan this year at goals per 60. Actually I'm not sure there is a center in the league making as much as Monahan that is behind him in that metric.

edit: I checked and Kopitar is behind him. Monahan at 252, Kopitar at 268.

I'm just really surprised you keep arguing that Monahan's current play justifies his salary.

IMO it's entirely about whether he is able to rebound and reagin his production without being a liability in his own zone.

I never said “justifies” and I’m not sure why you are using that particular GP60 stat - do others not do as well?

What I said is his contract isn’t wildly out of the market price, and that’s at his current production. At his previous levels it was a bargain.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I never said “justifies” and I’m not sure why you are using that particular GP60 stat - do others not do as well?

What I said is his contract isn’t wildly out of the market price, and that’s at his current production. At his previous levels it was a bargain.

What stat would you like to use to measure production? Monahan is a goal scorer above all else, that is certainly how he earned the contract.

IMO the bolded is just flat out wrong. $6.3 million for a goal scorer who scores at his current rate is really bad. Feel free to bring up other stats that you feel would prove this out.

Admit it, no one is signing the 250th best goal scorer in the league to that contract, based on that current level of production. He'd either have to possess some other elite skills (Monahan doesn't) or you'd be banking on a rebound. Which has been my point.

Arguing he played to his contract this year is truly mind boggling. If you think Monahan did, then I can't believe who on the roster you feel did not.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I’m (a) looking at centres, (b) looking at what they make and (c) looking at their production. What does Paul Stastny make? Schenn? RNH? Johanssen? DuChene? Larkin? Henrique? They have produced about the same as Monahan, make about the same, and he’s having a terrible year.

And I don’t think you look at one year out of a 6 year contract to determine value.

Comparing other NHL centers to Monahan doesn’t help the Flames out though. The GM’s mismanagement of the cap has put the Flames in a position where they have to find good value in a lot of their big ticket players and so Monahan has to provide enough value relative to everyone else on the Flames roster or he has to go for the Flames to take the next step.

I’ve already outlined several times why I believe his contract won’t help the Flames going forward because if he’s just going to play with more Brett Ritchies of the world, how is paying Monahan $6.3M to bleed goals against and be ineffective offensively going to help this team win?

Darryl has already talked about this team not having enough elite talent to compete against the good teams of the league. So if Treliving attempts to acquire that elite talent, which is expensive, than big contracts will assuredly have to go the other way and Monahan’s contract is likely going to be at the top of the list.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Monahan to me needs to become a competent 200 foot player.

He is not as he exists today. Will playing for Sutter help him gain that aspect to his game? For our sake, I hope so.

Will never be IMO. He’s trying harder, but his lack of physical tools really hinders his ability to defend at a high level. As I’ve already stated, he is a team worst -22 over the last couple seasons, could you imagine how much worse his plus/minus would be if he was tasked to shut down the McDavid’s of the world?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Comparing other NHL centers to Monahan doesn’t help the Flames out though. The GM’s mismanagement of the cap has put the Flames in a position where they have to find good value in a lot of their big ticket players and so Monahan has to provide enough value relative to everyone else on the Flames roster or he has to go for the Flames to take the next step.

I’ve already outlined several times why I believe his contract won’t help the Flames going forward because if he’s just going to play with more Brett Ritchies of the world, how is paying Monahan $6.3M to bleed goals against and be ineffective offensively going to help this team win?

Darryl has already talked about this team not having enough elite talent to compete against the good teams of the league. So if Treliving attempts to acquire that elite talent, which is expensive, than big contracts will assuredly have to go the other way and Monahan’s contract is likely going to be at the top of the list.

His contract value league wide is relevant for trade value. The notion he’s worth peanuts because of his contract is what’s being pushed against. And it’s nowhere near the issue that Tkachuk or Gaudreau are going to become contract wise.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

His contract value league wide is relevant for trade value. The notion he’s worth peanuts because of his contract is what’s being pushed against. And it’s nowhere near the issue that Tkachuk or Gaudreau are going to become contract wise.

Well there’s a lot of real estate between being worth peanuts and playing to his contract. You’re pushing against an argument no one is making.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Monahan to me needs to become a competent 200 foot player.

He is not as he exists today. Will playing for Sutter help him gain that aspect to his game? For our sake, I hope so.

I agree with competent. Well competent on the defensive side of things and above that in the goal scoring department.

[Gaskal]

Why is it always at the end of the season where we learn of these ailments?

If it's bad enough to require surgery and months of recovery time, I feel like it's in the best interest of all parties involved to shut him down earlier than later.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

Why is it always at the end of the season where we learn of these ailments?

If it's bad enough to require surgery and months of recovery time, I feel like it's in the best interest of all parties involved to shut him down earlier than later.

Worst part is they kept him playing on the top offensive line and stifles it to the point where even the fans want to trade our only real dynamic player.

[Hanna Sniper]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Worst part is they kept him playing on the top offensive line and stifles it to the point where even the fans want to trade our only real dynamic player.

Elias Lindholm has been the team's No.1 center since opening puck drop and the top scoring line

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

Why is it always at the end of the season where we learn of these ailments?

If it's bad enough to require surgery and months of recovery time, I feel like it's in the best interest of all parties involved to shut him down earlier than later.

I think it's a mix of desperation from the club side to play him since they need him to contribute anyway he can, and also his stubbornness and wanting to play no matter what. I remember a few seasons ago Treliving said something along the lines of Monahan was pissed that they shut him down early or something like that.

[FanIn80]

Well if they pulled him out of the lineup 20 games ago, while we were still in the playoff hunt, our C depth chart would have been

Lindholm
Backlund
Ryan
Gawdin

I guess they thought

Lindholm
Hipless Monahan
Backlund
Ryan

gave us a better shot at making the playoffs?

Edit: I guess an argument could be made that it would have been pointless to make the playoffs anyway, since his hip injury was making him pretty ineffective... but there's also the "anything can happen" argument that almost always makes it worth it to just get in regardless.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

His contract value league wide is relevant for trade value. The notion he’s worth peanuts because of his contract is what’s being pushed against. And it’s nowhere near the issue that Tkachuk or Gaudreau are going to become contract wise.

I never said he was worth peanuts. In fact, I stated the opposite last week saying I think he still has some value and I even mentioned a few teams that could use him just today. Sam Bennett got a change of scenery and look at him flourishing. I’m hoping a few other teams feel the same way about Monahan and give him a shot.

Gaudreau and Tkachuk if they do decide to stay, would be well worth it. Lindholm’s contract is still fantastic so that’ll offset some of the cost of the other 2. I’ve just marveled at how they’ve transformed this team’s ability to be competitive because of how well they breakout and their ability to easily gain the zone and create traction in the offensive zone.

They set up other lines for success by constantly cycling and dominating their opposition line. I think it was the Boeser and Horvat line they trapped in the defensive end while pummeling them with shots. I think they have a chance to be an elite NHL line and I have no problem paying for that. It’s the bottom level players the Flames have to be careful with. This team cannot afford another expensive mistake if they want to compete for a Cup as we’ve already seen the terrible byproducts of the ugly Neal and the Brouwer contracts (i.e. your favorite punching bag Brett Ritchie).

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

Why is it always at the end of the season where we learn of these ailments?

If it's bad enough to require surgery and months of recovery time, I feel like it's in the best interest of all parties involved to shut him down earlier than later.

One word.

PLAYOFFS.

[FanIn80]

Monahan is a C with a $6M contract and there are only a handful of players in the entire league who have scored more goals than him since he played his first game.

He was playing like a whole new man at the start of the year. Hitting, scoring, defending... he looked like a man possessed out there at times. Who knows for sure when he screwed up his hip (and/or whatever else we don't know about). Monahan is notorious for playing through injuries that would sideline most people (even going all the way back to junior).

This notion that he has no value is laughable. I saw enough of what I was looking for out of him at the start of the year, and Sutter has come out and talked about how he's "done everything that was asked of him and more." I'm pretty interested in seeing what Sutter can do with him during a full, normal, season - with fans, proper practices, non-compressed schedules, etc.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I never said “justifies” and I’m not sure why you are using that particular GP60 stat - do others not do as well?

What I said is his contract isn’t wildly out of the market price, and that’s at his current production. At his previous levels it was a bargain.

But you are trying to justify his contract based on current production of certain players who are not producing to their current contract.

And ignoring many who are.

Are you really suggesting that if Monny was a UFA today he’d get anywhere close to his current contract?

The questions about his future health and production suggests that there is likely no team that would be willing to take on his current contract without sending back some risky cap.


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[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Worst part is they kept him playing on the top offensive line and stifles it to the point where even the fans want to trade our only real dynamic player.

Never heard it from me. I’ve never been interested in trading Gaudreau because I’ve known since the day I saw him in a Flames jersey that he was an elite play driver. Much like how Kiprusoff hid the Flames’ flaws defensively, Gaudreau hides the flaws of his team. He does the job of a center despite being a diminutive winger. His ability to play with the puck through the middle of the ice and distribute effectively to either side helps to break down the opposition’s defensive structures. He also has a little bit of McDavid in him where he can back up defenses with his quickness and freeze them while finding his trailing linemates. I never once questioned his talent or questioned who the drive on his line was.