Canada Should Not Participate in the 2022 Winter Olympics

[Monahammer]

I'll just tell my family in Hong Kong to think of the millions of Chinese who were lifted out of poverty the next time they confide in me how scared they are. Problem solved.

Also JohnnyB, you don't owe me anything. But you owe it to the people below to openly criticize the government of China.





















It's not just the Uighers. It's not just Hong Kong.

[jeffman]

Originally Posted by 81MC

I don’t buy that, at all.

Is condemning Myanmar regarding the treatment of Rohingya fuelling anti-Asian hatred?
Is siding with Palestine regarding Israeli aggressions fuelling anti-Semite hatred?
Is perpetually talking about the #### show to the south fuelling anti-American hatred?

I don’t get it. Sounds like a great way to deflect. “You just don’t understand. Because your racist.” What a world.


On the broad painting brush: Johnny says many Chinese support the government, and aren’t fearful of them. So ‘many’ Chinese nationals support a government that has for several years been proven to be systemically raping, sterilizing and arbitrarily imprisoning millions of their own.
Honest question, is this because the very government that must not be so bad that they have the support of ‘many’ Chinese is actually using propaganda to lie to their citizens?
Or are there ‘many’ who are not fearful, are well informed, and still support their government while it carries out incredibly large scale and long term brutal abuses? Because if it’s the later, you’re ####ing right I have an issue with those ‘many’ Chinese, and it has absolutely nothing to do with their nationality.

Just to the point yes being anti Israel makes you anti Semitic. Sorry no other way to put it
https://www.adl.org/resources/fact-s...e-anti-semites

[CroFlames]

I may be putting words in JohnnyB's mouth, but I think what he is saying is that despite China doing some horrible ####, they do some good #### too.

And I think I agree with him.

America can be used as an example. They openly commit war crimes for which no one answers for, they treat their poor like ####, treat asylum seekers like ####, still operate a literal concentration camp in Gitmo, have institutional racism right up the highest levels of government, and the list goes on. Yet we all still vacation there, cheer for American teams and revel in their culture because they do a lot of good #### in the world. These are all true statements.

I'll get flamed for comparing the USA to China, but frankly I think many countries do a lot of bad things, and I'm starting to wonder if the uproar against China is thinly veiled racism. I don't recall this much uproar against the Sochi Olympics or the World Cup despite Putin's loooooong list of crimes.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by jeffman

Just to the point yes being anti Israel makes you anti Semitic. Sorry no other way to put it
https://www.adl.org/resources/fact-s...e-anti-semites

That's not what your link suggests.

As with China, criticism of Israel is valid but its context should be considered. I believe this is what JohnnyB is trying to say. We should ensure our criticism is of the Chinese government and the way they operate, and not Chinese people as a whole, or wish consequences that would unjustly affect many innocent Chinese people (such as crushing them in a war). On top of that, it's important to at least be aware and recognize that anti-Chinese government sentiments can be and are co-opted by racists, which is why it's important to be fair and exact in our criticisms, and call out criticisms or calls for action that would impact innocent people for no other reason than their being Chinese.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by jeffman

Just to the point yes being anti Israel makes you anti Semitic. Sorry no other way to put it
https://www.adl.org/resources/fact-s...e-anti-semites

Sorry but that's not what the article says:

Certainly the sovereign State of Israel and its government can be legitimately criticized just like any other country or government in the world. Criticism of particular Israeli actions or policies – even harsh and strident criticism and advocacy - in and of itself does not constitute anti-Semitism.

Natan Sharansky, an Israeli leader and former Soviet “refusenik” identifies “3 D’s” to determine when anti-Israel criticism crosses over into anti-Semitism: demonization, delegitimization and when Israel is held to a double standard

I am sorry I don't believe that there is a government that should be above rebuke or criticism. That in my opinion is very dangerous.

You absolutely can be critical of the Government of Israel and not be anti-sematic.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I may be putting words in JohnnyB's mouth, but I think what he is saying is that despite China doing some horrible ####, they do some good #### too.
.

Can you provide a list of those things please?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I'll just tell my family in Hong Kong to think of the millions of Chinese who were lifted out of poverty the next time they confide in me how scared they are. Problem solved.

Also JohnnyB, you don't owe me anything. But you owe it to the people below to openly criticize the government of China.

No ####, Sherlock; however, when people were talking about crushing China in a war, that crossed a line into abject stupidity and needed to be addressed. We really want our children over in China fighting to the death killing poor Chinese people to stick it to the government? Of course not.

So yeah, criticize the Chinese government all you want, but also recognize the Chinese citizens are just yous and mes that don't deserve death and destruction for their government's actions. Also recognize where Johnny is posting from and appreciate there are some real-world consequences to what he can write, while also understanding it's just human beings over there with lives and culture and relationships - that's what he's pointing out. Let's not dehumanize "the Chinese" and their country because I sure as hell wasn't reading criticism leveled squarely at the Chinese government in this thread...there was a lot aimed at China and the Chinese and if you don't think racism grows from that kind of language you're as naïve as the day is long.

Originally Posted by jeffman

Just to the point yes being anti Israel makes you anti Semitic. Sorry no other way to put it
https://www.adl.org/resources/fact-s...e-anti-semites

You have to be kidding. That's a ridiculous notion.

[Wastedyouth]

Swear filter is getting a good workout in this thread!

[81MC]

Originally Posted by jeffman

Just to the point yes being anti Israel makes you anti Semitic. Sorry no other way to put it
https://www.adl.org/resources/fact-s...e-anti-semites

Man, if that is ones outlook on things than there is no opportunity for rational discourse. Not to mention I didn’t even say anti-Israeli.

This is the mindset that actually sows division and weakens positive discourse. Think about how utterly ####ing ridiculous that statement is. How do you even begin to open it up?

Oh you speak out against the Somalian government for this Isaac atrocities? Must be anti-black?
Are you serious here?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

That's not what your link suggests.

As with China, criticism of Israel is valid but its context should be considered. I believe this is what JohnnyB is trying to say. We should ensure our criticism is of the Chinese government and the way they operate, and not Chinese people as a whole

So far so good, agreed.

... or wish consequences that would unjustly affect many innocent Chinese people (such as crushing them in a war).

Eh, you lost me. I'm certainly not calling for a war with China, but I'm declining to do so because it sounds utterly insane to me. If the likely outcome of such a war would be positive change on a global scale, rather than what I expect would happen in reality, the impact on innocent Chinese citizens wouldn't somehow make it taboo to talk about doing it. I hate to Godwin things up in here, but it's a reasonable analogy in this case: plenty of innocent, well meaning German citizens who did nothing wrong and simply had the bad luck to be born in Germany at the wrong time in history were harmed by the allies. Obviously their degree of culpability varied - some people were no doubt wilfully blind to atrocity as long as their lives were good - but plenty were just caught up in history, and their deaths or the other bad things that happened to them were simply unfortunate byproducts of a necessary response. And if you're thinking, "bad analogy because Germany occupied France and bombed Britain", this would still be true even if the Nazis hadn't done those things and had stuck to exterminating Jews.

2021 China isn't as bad as Nazi Germany. But the point of the analogy is that if a regime is horrible enough, the necessary action global response to that regime will inevitably harm some of the innocent people living under it. Whether that action involves economic sanctions or political pressure from abroad or the support of reformers or open war, once you're in that situation, the harm those things might do to innocent people living in the country in question don't make them less necessary to do.

On top of that, it's important to at least be aware and recognize that anti-Chinese government sentiments can be and are co-opted by racists, which is why it's important to be fair and exact in our criticisms, and call out criticisms or calls for action that would impact innocent people for no other reason than their being Chinese.

To compromise about honest, direct criticism of evil practices because it might embolden other evil people to be evil is essentially just a heckler's veto. It's not a good reason not to speak in the first place. As for being accurate and fair, sure, that's something everyone should strive for, simply for its own sake. But there are actions that can reasonably be called for that are perfectly defensible, and would nonetheless impact innocent people for no other reason than their being Chinese, just as the actions of the Chinese government impact people living in the rest of the world.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

...the harm those things might do to innocent people living in the country in question don't make them less necessary to do...

Necessary or not, I'm not going to go about wishing and hoping for it.

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

To compromise about honest, direct criticism of evil practices because it might embolden other evil people to be evil is essentially just a heckler's veto.

This is not what I'm suggesting. If you're being accurate and fair, there would be no reason to compromise in the first place, I'm simply suggesting people be aware of how these criticisms are co-opted, especially those that are neither accurate nor fair. And not to shake hands with anti-Chinese sentiments masking as anti-Chinese government sentiments. Not that I think it's a particular problem in this thread.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Chinese citizenry will remain quiescent in its government’s authoritarian ways so long as their economic fortunes and living standards continue to improve. If the economy tanks, all bets are off. Which is why many of the well-heeled (including Communist party officials) have bolt-holes in Western countries as security.

It is not just that, but the CCP is also playing off Han Chinese (the vast majority) against "others", plus appealing to nationalism to deflect potential issues. It is actually very smart - on the one hand, we are making you richer, but also channelling discontent into "safe" outlets at the expense of internal and external "enemies". Muslim and Tibetan extremists, Japanese colonialists, American oppressors and their Korean lackeys, Vietnamese usurpers, etc - plenty of troublemakers.

[undercoverbrother]

Chinese Government doing Chinese Government things

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/worl...forced-labour/

**Please note this is not a condemnation of the citizens of China, rather it is a condemnation of the murderous regime governing the country of China**

[Cappy]

I haven't read this whole thread so if it has been discussed, forgive me.

I imagine a lot of countries are weighing the issue of protesting the Olympics in China but also understanding the short window athletes have to win a medal. I couldn't imagine what its like to train for something every day for pretty little compensation to have that dream crushed because the corrupt Olympics gave the games to a country with an atrocious regime. While some argue the games shouldnt be policital, they clearly are, and in some cases should be as it is a way for the international community to shed light on abhorrent activities in a way that hurts their soft power.

In any event, if there were enough countries contemplating this, what would they say to a parallel games. They arent the olympics, but are organized by a group of countries to compete in the same events and win medals. You could spread out the events to the different participating countries offering an incentive to those whom participate. Some countries that regularly dominate a specific event could even host that event and have their own citizens witness it.

[Harry Lime]

H&M tossed out of Chinese marketplace. Interesting read. One thing to take into account is that 'forced labor' is the nice current way of saying slavery.

In January, the United States banned all products made with cotton from Xinjiang, with U.S. Customs and Border Protection saying it had found a series of forced labour indicators, including debt bondage, restriction of movement, isolation, intimidation and threats, withholding of wages, and abusive living and working conditions.

The Canadian government has also banned the import of all products produced by forced labour.

In recent years, Chinese authorities have incarcerated large numbers of Uyghurs and other predominantly Muslim groups in Xinjiang for forcible political indoctrination and skills training. The government says those people have graduated, but former detainees and relatives have said people who leave indoctrination camps are regularly forced to sign work contracts.

Chinese authorities, however, accuse critics of lying about the existence of forced labour.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/worl...forced-labour/

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

H&M tossed out of Chinese marketplace. Interesting read. One thing to take into account is that 'forced labor' is the nice current way of saying slavery.





https://www.theglobeandmail.com/worl...forced-labour/


**Please note this is not a condemnation of the citizens of China, rather it is a condemnation of the murderous regime governing the country of China**

Fixed your post I don't want your post to be misconstrued

[Flamenspiel]

Let’s stay on topic here, it’s about China, hostages, genocide and the Olympics boycott relating to Beijing 2022. Interesting attempts to derail the thread, classic disinformation bringing in other countries, clouding the issue and relativism, right out of the KGB textbook(active measures).

[GirlySports]

Can we just conclude that all criticism in this thread is of the government so that we don't have to have disclaimers for disclaimers?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Cappy

I haven't read this whole thread so if it has been discussed, forgive me.

I imagine a lot of countries are weighing the issue of protesting the Olympics in China but also understanding the short window athletes have to win a medal. I couldn't imagine what its like to train for something every day for pretty little compensation to have that dream crushed because the corrupt Olympics gave the games to a country with an atrocious regime. While some argue the games shouldnt be policital, they clearly are, and in some cases should be as it is a way for the international community to shed light on abhorrent activities in a way that hurts their soft power.

In any event, if there were enough countries contemplating this, what would they say to a parallel games. They arent the olympics, but are organized by a group of countries to compete in the same events and win medals. You could spread out the events to the different participating countries offering an incentive to those whom participate. Some countries that regularly dominate a specific event could even host that event and have their own citizens witness it.

It would be pretty ironic that in a society of more inclusiveness, globalization and multiculturalism that it breaks up the biggest inclusive, global and multicultural event there is.

[Harry Lime]

It's interesting to note that upon reading some of the background information on the conflict between H&M, Nike and other Western owned clothiers, and China, that it is the Chinese government that is actively promoting singers, rappers, influencers to become involved in making this personal, and attack upon Chinese people and not the government. I guess the old tactics do still work.