[PGT] Flames Lose to Canucks by a lot of goals

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Boreal

Maybe. Will they pay to bring in Bruce Boudreau? I doubt it. I think they’re still paying Peters.

Hard to say.

There is one guy that ticks all the boxes I have and it might not be a popular name around here, but that's Torts. I think his style suits the majority of the players on this team very well, and he has his teams play that fast transition that I keep whining about. I think for the exact reasons he was bad in Vancouver, he'd be good here. Seems like a fit to me

His contract is up this summer, and while it's likely a pipe dream since he fits Columbus very well too and they'd be dumb to let him go, I'd sure like to see it.

[PepsiFree]

I don’t really care much if they swap Ward or not. Seems like he might not be great? Or maybe the problem is elsewhere?

One thing I do know, is that in much the same way bringing in Markstrom took the question mark away from that area of the team, bringing in a bonafide coach with previous (recent) success would leave us with one less thing to question.

The wings are weak and the coaching is questionable. Still a good team regardless of those problems, but it would sure be nice to solve one of them this season.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Plus this idea that this team has been broken for a long time is so flawed. The team has made substantial changes over the last 2 1/2 seasons.

Look back at the end of the 17-18 roster and the changes since then of “core” (longer than 1 year deals) on this roster:

Here in 17-18: Gio, Backlund, Monahan, Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Bennett

New since then: Lindholm, Mangiapane, Dube, Lucic, Hanifin, Tanev, Andersson, Valimaki, Markstrom

Only 6 guys are still the same from those years! We’ve turned over 75% of the roster.

This isn’t the same team. This is a better team than Hartley had, this is a better team than Gulutzan had, this is a better team than Peters had.

Sure the players aren’t perfect but Ward is getting less out of a better roster than any of his predecessors did before him. The guy is just not an NHL coach.

Maybe, but Hartley (in his one good year) had playoff Ferland, Hudler, Wideman in a weird career year, Brodie, prime Gio, close to a career year for Hiller. You can’t ignore the deletions. It’s a better team, but maybe some intangibles were lost too. Engelland, Stajan, were 100% guys with or without Hartley.

Ward isn’t a very good coach. But I think this is more on the players.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by zamler

That means gut the core, can the coach and GM.

Fine with me. I just want to win. I really don't care who the GM, coach or players are. Right now, whatever it is, it's not going to win a championship.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Hard to say.

There is one guy that ticks all the boxes I have and it might not be a popular name around here, but that's Torts. I think his style suits the majority of the players on this team very well, and he has his teams play that fast transition that I keep whining about. I think for the exact reasons he was bad in Vancouver, he'd be good here. Seems like a fit to me

His contract is up this summer, and while it's likely a pipe dream since he fits Columbus very well too and they'd be dumb to let him go, I'd sure like to see it.

Torts would be fine. Though he’d bench Gaudreau for not blocking shots, but whatever.

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

You misunderstood. Not talking down to you

It is exhausting to be able to bring evidence to support a strategy that the coach refuses to implement

This #### has worked right under his nose

13-23-28 - a top line in the league
19-11-88 - top down the stretch just last year
17-93-29 - best line in the playoffs

Just ####ing do it, Ward. For 10 games.

And play fast.

Nothing your blender does places probability over hope.

We saw under Brent Sutter good players implementing a strategy that was awful and suited for junior. That’s where we are again

Damn right we have an unproven and underachieving coach

Those top two lines were good but completely ineffective in the playoffs, which is what prompted the reshuffling of the lines, Lindholm at centre experiment, etc.

Right now everyone is frustrated because we aren't even back at the level that Peters had the team playing. A lot of fans are calling for us to go back to that, so that at least we can be a good REGULAR SEASON team again. But I think that's short-sighted. We already know we can, but we'll just get bounced again in the playoffs.

I think the whole point of this line shuffling is trying to figure out if we can be more than a good regular season team that get swept in the first round. So far the answer is no. That failusre falls on both the coach AND players.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

LOL. So when they play badly it’s the coach, when they play well, it’s the players. Got it.

If you have a better explanation I'd like to hear it.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Torts would be fine. Though he’d bench Gaudreau for not blocking shots, but whatever.

Yeah there's a list of players in my head in Calgary that imo would suit him well, but Gaudreau and Monahan weren't on it. I think it'd be fine since in the last 5 years he's switched that narrative to really just include overall effort

But still, likely just a pipe dream either way.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

All teams abandon their system when they're down (or up!) multiple goals, and score effects take over.

I think the only place you can really evaluate coaches(re: system) is when the game is close or tied.

The Flames play badly when the game is close or tied. Period.

Now, coaches can be evaluated for their player usage when the scores are lopsided. And Ward, much like GG, loves his four line insanity even when trailing.




That team was considered the frontrunner rosterwise for drafting Connor McDavid and beat a 100 pt team in the playoffs below-average goaltending.

Ward has shortened the bench a lot this year, I’d say.

But I’m talking not only about within games. I’m talking about entire runs that they’ve had under GG and Ward. They were playing those coach’s systems and succeeding. Then they quit working and lose. Maybe that’s also a coaching problem but it’s also a huge player problem.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by zamler

If you have a better explanation I'd like to hear it.

I put the blame on both and credit both.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Fine with me. I just want to win. I really don't care who the GM, coach or players are. Right now, whatever it is, it's not going to win a championship.

Then we are mostly on the same page. Except I have a gut feeling this group is way better than what we are seeing.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I put the blame on both and credit both.

Oh, well that clears things up.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Maybe, but Hartley (in his one good year) had playoff Ferland, Hudler, Wideman in a weird career year, Brodie, prime Gio, close to a career year for Hiller. You can’t ignore the deletions. It’s a better team, but maybe some intangibles were lost too. Engelland, Stajan, were 100% guys with or without Hartley.

Ward isn’t a very good coach. But I think this is more on the players.

Gio got injured that year. Hartley was playing guys like Diaz, Schlemko, and Wotherspoon in the playoffs and still managed to find ways to not have them cost us games on the blueline. Our 4C in the playoffs was Markus Granlund, when it wasn't Josh Jooris. Hiller lost his net mid-season to Karri Ramo. That team had a double digit game losing streak and still looked more exciting than we look in our wins.

Gulutzan had that same Engelland you refer to, yet managed to make our third pair of Bart-Engelland an absolute liability like Diaz-Wotherspoon never was.

I think these are the kind of small things that get magnified big time in big games, and these mickey mouse coaches (GG, Post ASB Peters, Ward) continue to cost us.

[curves2000]

The Overtime 960 call in show is just flat out angry tonight, and rightfully so. Wow!

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

That team won 1 round in the playoffs.

That roster had no business winning anything

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Not sure if it's Ward or Treliving or Lindholm or a combination of all 3, but it seems like the team is insistent on leaving Lindy at center. So now the Flames have to figure out what centers are going to play the wing, what the line combos are, what 4th liner will play on the top line, etc.........Lindy is so good everywhere he plays, putting him back at RW on that top line solves a lot of problems at once. I sure wish they'd give it a shot.

Lindholm is playing great at centre. Monahan and Gaudreau getting hemmed in by the fourth line is not the RW problem.

Tkachuk not playing near his level is not on Lindholm. Those three (Monahan, Gaudreau and Tkachuk) are below their level of play for past few games despite some points.

And it's not just them. The entire team is not sharp to start games. They don't skate to start - they just watch the other team to see what they're going to get. They are content with taking it.

Apparently CGY compete level is a slow boil. I guess that's what CGY scouts look for because compete is supposed to be quality management selects for but they just chose the we'll get to it later kind. Stand around and watch kind.

I mean Markstrom is ready why can't they copy him?

[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I understand people saying it's not just the coach, but at the same time I do believe we have some very good players in Calgary. They're just playing systems and a style that doesn't suit them.

The biggest issue is transitioning up the ice. They should be focusing on fast clean breakouts. Get the puck and send it up ice before the other team can get set. Instead, the focus seems to be a slower methodical attack as a unit type. The team is too easy to forecheck against for that to work and we see that with the number of turnovers.

It's the same thing we saw with Gulutzan, it's not that it's a bad system, but it's a square peg in a round hole for the makeup of this team.

Yeah, this.

We get possession in our end and we either slow it down to get set before moving forward where everything is already clogged up or one guy moves it up himself without a sense of what to do but turn it back over because there isn't a knowing of where his mates will be.

This current group has always played its best with short passes and quick movement up ice. When 2-3 three guys move ahead as a group in close proximity as soon as the puck is gained and tap the puck between each other to counter opposition in the neutral zone.

Too often we're outmanned through the middle, forcing long passes that get picked off, or simply moving ahead too slowly making for easy turnovers and no odd man rush opportunities.

Quick transition as a group is key.

In general though, everything has gone better when they're moving their feet. First things first.

[Savvy27]

I actually like the make up of the team quite lot, so I guess I'm in the minority of most of the PGT posters.

It's an interesting argument, reading that keeping Lindholm at C will be worthwhile even if the team performs worse in the short term due to missing a second top six RW (besides Mangiapane). I disagree, because I don't think Lindholm is showing signs of being a game breaking C.

As a fan, I'd just like to see Gaudreau-Monhan-Lindholm back together because they are talented and fun to watch. Watching Ritchie out there with Gaudreau was an unpleasant reminder of the mess of lines last year when Robinson was put there before the players eventually asked the coaches to revert to the lines that worked.

Tkachuk plays a lot better with Backlund as his C than with Lindholm. Not sure if it's chemistry or what but his game is terrible right now and it makes a lot of sense to put him back with his longtime C.

Demoting Bennett from the Bubble Line was pure idiocy and I'll never understand that.

Happily, I think that Brett Ritchie showed he can actually play tonight. I would love to see Gawdin get a shot and maybe get Leivo back in there.

The D pairs were good before and I hope they go back to them.

Awful game and frankly, a bad series vs the Canucks. However, there is still a lot of promise with this squad and if the coaches will just go back to lines that worked, I'd expect a playoff level team for the rest of the season.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Gio got injured that year. Hartley was playing guys like Diaz, Schlemko, and Wotherspoon in the playoffs and still managed to find ways to not have them cost us games on the blueline. Our 4C in the playoffs was Markus Granlund, when it wasn't Josh Jooris. Hiller lost his net mid-season to Karri Ramo. That team had a double digit game losing streak and still looked more exciting than we look in our wins.

Gulutzan had that same Engelland you refer to, yet managed to make our third pair of Bart-Engelland an absolute liability like Diaz-Wotherspoon never was.

I think these are the kind of small things that get magnified big time in big games, and these mickey mouse coaches (GG, Post ASB Peters, Ward) continue to cost us.

I don’t think Peters, Ward or GG are great coaches, or even good. But Hartley wasn’t either. He got lucky one year based on rookie enthusiasm and timely tandem goaltending. And every significant pro league team agrees he’s not a guy they want to hire.

[combustiblefuel]

Haven't read the thread yet as I watch in a severe delay but.

Since the players only meeting telling tkachuk to calm down his play had fallen off an edge. He has just become lazy only looking for outlet passes. I don't blame him . Why play a hard nose in your face game when your team is telling you not to. He has a disinterested look after whistles now. The flames need to let him do his thing or he will look for an out.

Don't blame Markstrom for the second goal . That is a move of a frustrated goalie. That is a move a goalie makes when hes pissed at the team in front of him. That's a " If you can't play defense I will. I've been bailing you out now I gotta play defense too.."


It's obvious Gio is losing steps not a step. He cant keep keep up with the younger fast forecheck.

The god damn dump and chase. Why the #### is Ward getting them to do this? This isnt the big bad bruins in 2010. The flames aren't huge . This isn't there game. Every time I see it I think of what Iginla told Conroy " This isn't the fourth line any more, you dump the puck in you go get it"

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Ward has shortened the bench a lot this year, I’d say.

But I’m talking not only about within games. I’m talking about entire runs that they’ve had under GG and Ward. They were playing those coach’s systems and succeeding. Then they quit working and lose. Maybe that’s also a coaching problem but it’s also a huge player problem.

What runs are you talking about?

Under Ward, I've seen none. Having one line playing well (Whether that's Tkachuk-Backlund-Mangiapane or Lucic-Bennett-Dube while all other lines struggle doesn't exactly qualify IMO)

Gulutzan's best "runs" came during a stretch where Chad Johnson looked like a Vezina candidate, and then a ten game stretch when Brian Elliott played his best hockey. The irony is that those stretches were the worst underlying number stretches of Gulutzan's tenure, even though improving underlying numbers was his whole MO.