Fire Brad Treliving

[Vinny01]

The Flames might not be the better team today than yesterday but they have positioned themselves to be better in the future. Hamilton was the first mega extension they would need to sign followed by Gaudreau.

Do we see the Flames winning the cup in 3 years? Maybe but unlikely so why not add 2 younger players to the core and sign them long term so they are still coming in at decent value when Johnny needs his next payday.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The bolded is the part that trips me up with this deal. I agree with you that they need to be better for us to be even or marginally improved for this season. Consequently, your argument is basically that we got more expensive as a result of this trade, but not necessarily better. And some people wonder why the sentiment surrounding the trade is what it is.

The big question for me with Lindholm is where he plays, and with whom. If he's willing to play RW, then he's basically Gaudreau and Monahan's wingman by default. And with those two, he could probably put up a lot of points. But if he (and/or Peters) insists that he's a C, then what? You pretty much have to play him with Tkachuk or he's going to be trying to drag players around the ice. And in that case, we've only made our weakness at RW worse.

July 1 is going to be quite interesting, as we're going to have to overpay to deal with the mess at RW that Treliving has completely failed to address to this point, despite spending heavy coin to add players to areas of strength.

And where I challenge this view is that you are looking at this season only.

With reasonable expectations for all the players, it is probably pretty even for this year, or, if there is little improvement from either player, the Canes maybe get a little more THIS YEAR.

However Lindholm and Hanifin are significantly younger than Hamilton and Ferland, and have, combined, substantially more upside.

Also, while the Flames will pay more this season (unless Hanifin signs a bridge deal), Hamilton and Ferland will cost more next season. We will have younger guys, with more upside, signed for longer, at less cost (or similar).

Unless Fox realizes his potential - and does so for the Canes, not as a free agent - this trade looks to be a pretty easy win for the Flames beyond this season.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And where I challenge this view is that you are looking at this season only.

With reasonable expectations for all the players, it is probably pretty even for this year, or, if there is little improvement from either player, the Canes maybe get a little more THIS YEAR.

However Lindholm and Hanifin are significantly younger than Hamilton and Ferland, and have, combined, substantially more upside.

Also, while the Flames will pay more this season (unless Hanifin signs a bridge deal), Hamilton and Ferland will cost more next season. We will have younger guys, with more upside, signed for longer, at less cost (or similar).

Unless Fox realizes his potential - and does so for the Canes, not as a free agent - this trade looks to be a pretty easy win for the Flames beyond this season.

Why do people keep saying this? Hamilton hasn't peaked and probably has a big career season ahead of him. Fox could be a 40-50 point defenseman. Ferland is what he is but on the right line can be a 15-20 goal player. Lindholm doesn't even had Bo Horvat offensive upside at this stage and I'm not sure he's every going to be a 60+ point guy. Hanifin was getting sheltered minutes and defensive play has always been a concern with him and while he's probably equal to Hamilton in the transition game he doesn't have the same offensive upside as Hamilton. Both players have upside but "more" upside than Hamilton and Fox? I don't think so as it's a pretty even trade in regards to upside.

[djsFlames]

Lindholms 22 and isn't horvat a 40-50 point guy right now? Lindholm is putting up that so uh.... wat.

Neggy nelly making up some neggy narratives.

Lindholm > Ferland with career years ahead of him.
Hanifin is ahead of Hamilton's trajectory at the same age wuth career years ahead of him.
See you can spin that the other way too.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Why do people keep saying this? Hamilton hasn't peaked and probably has a big career season ahead of him. Fox could be a 40-50 point defenseman. Ferland is what he is but on the right line can be a 15-20 goal player. Lindholm doesn't even had Bo Horvat offensive upside at this stage and I'm not sure he's every going to be a 60+ point guy. Hanifin was getting sheltered minutes and defensive play has always been a concern with him and while he's probably equal to Hamilton in the transition game he doesn't have the same offensive upside as Hamilton. Both players have upside but "more" upside than Hamilton and Fox? I don't think so as it's a pretty even trade in regards to upside.

I don't think Fox's upside should be part of the equation. As far as the equation is concerned, pre-trade and post-trade, it's the same. Essentially 0 compared with 0. We haven't lost his upside, as it seems we didn't have it to begin with.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Lindholms 22 and isn't horvat a 40-50 point guy right now? Lindholm is putting up that so uh.... wat.

Neggy nelly making up some neggy narratives.

Lindholm > Ferland with career years ahead of him.
Hanifin is ahead of Hamilton's trajectory at the same age wuth career years ahead of him.
See you can spin that the other way too.

Who said Ferland > Lindholm? Would you rather have Horvat or Lindholm? Horvat is a 16, 20, 22 goal scorer that would have got close to 25+ goals, 60 points if not for injury. No spin there as he's clearly the better player right now. I don't mind the player but I don't see the upside others do as we didn't get a guy like Horvat in this deal that the team needs.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by the2bears

I don't think Fox's upside should be part of the equation. As far as the equation is concerned, pre-trade and post-trade, it's the same. Essentially 0 compared with 0. We haven't lost his upside, as it seems we didn't have it to begin with.

So Fox wasn't part of this trade? Was Fox not a top Flames prospect? Does his upside not count to Carolina?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Why do people keep saying this? Hamilton hasn't peaked and probably has a big career season ahead of him. Fox could be a 40-50 point defenseman. Ferland is what he is but on the right line can be a 15-20 goal player. Lindholm doesn't even had Bo Horvat offensive upside at this stage and I'm not sure he's every going to be a 60+ point guy. Hanifin was getting sheltered minutes and defensive play has always been a concern with him and while he's probably equal to Hamilton in the transition game he doesn't have the same offensive upside as Hamilton. Both players have upside but "more" upside than Hamilton and Fox? I don't think so.

Hanifin was getting sheltered minutes because he is a 21 year old defenseman. His transition game, his skating, his vision, and his defensive play, all have more upside than Hamilton.

Hamilton has more offensive upside, and definitely has a better shot. He is also huge, and has the tools to be a franchise player. But watching his progression over the last 3 years, and his commitment to the defensive side of the game, I have significantly downgraded my expectations for him.

You say that Ferland 'on the right line can be a 15-20 goal player', Lindholm at 23, has had at least 39 points for 4 straight years. And that was never because he was on the right line. Sure, he might never be a 60+ point guy. But he is floor is basically another Backlund, several years younger than Backlund got there.

[stang]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I thought he was a Wizard !!!

Maybe he was just waving at me

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

So Fox wasn't part of this trade? Was Fox not a top Flames prospect? Does his upside not count to Carolina?

Well sure, you know the answer to those. But if we're talking about it from a Flames perspective, do their players have more upside for them than what they traded away? Fox had 0 upside for the Flames, so I think it's more accurate to compare Lindholm/Hanifan with just Hamilton.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

So Fox wasn't part of this trade? Was Fox not a top Flames prospect? Does his upside not count to Carolina?

It does, but only marginally. I would not be at all surprised if he doesn't sign with Carolina either, and goes free agency.

If so, then regardless of how good a player he becomes, he is irrelevant to both these teams.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Hanifin was getting sheltered minutes because he is a 21 year old defenseman. His transition game, his skating, his vision, and his defensive play, all have more upside than Hamilton.

Hamilton has more offensive upside, and definitely has a better shot. He is also huge, and has the tools to be a franchise player. But watching his progression over the last 3 years, and his commitment to the defensive side of the game, I have significantly downgraded my expectations for him.

You say that Ferland 'on the right line can be a 15-20 goal player', Lindholm at 23, has had at least 39 points for 4 straight years. And that was never because he was on the right line. Sure, he might never be a 60+ point guy. But he is floor is basically another Backlund, several years younger than Backlund got there.

Craig Button said practically the opposite and regardless of what you say about him he probably knows more than we do.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It does, but only marginally. I would not be at all surprised if he doesn't sign with Carolina either, and goes free agency.

If so, then regardless of how good a player he becomes, he is irrelevant to both these teams.

So lets wait and see what happens then seeing he's a Hurricanes prospect now.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Why do people keep saying this? Hamilton hasn't peaked and probably has a big career season ahead of him. Fox could be a 40-50 point defenseman. Ferland is what he is but on the right line can be a 15-20 goal player. Lindholm doesn't even had Bo Horvat offensive upside at this stage and I'm not sure he's every going to be a 60+ point guy. Hanifin was getting sheltered minutes and defensive play has always been a concern with him and while he's probably equal to Hamilton in the transition game he doesn't have the same offensive upside as Hamilton. Both players have upside but "more" upside than Hamilton and Fox? I don't think so as it's a pretty even trade in regards to upside.

I don't see Hamilton trending upwards in Carolina. He won't be playing with Giordano who covered up many of his flaws and gave him free reigns to jump into the play a lot.

The Flames will miss his shot and goal scoring ability no doubt. But we definitely won't miss his penalties and his lackluster defensive play. Whatever downgrade Hanifin is offensively from Hamilton, hopefully he makes it up in a better all round game and less time in the box. Who knows, maybe Hanifin hits 40 points next season being fed point blank chances from Gaudreau.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Craig Button said practically the opposite and regardless of what you say about him he probably knows more than we do.

Nice appeal to authority. How about some other opinions?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And where I challenge this view is that you are looking at this season only.

With reasonable expectations for all the players, it is probably pretty even for this year, or, if there is little improvement from either player, the Canes maybe get a little more THIS YEAR.

However Lindholm and Hanifin are significantly younger than Hamilton and Ferland, and have, combined, substantially more upside.

Also, while the Flames will pay more this season (unless Hanifin signs a bridge deal), Hamilton and Ferland will cost more next season. We will have younger guys, with more upside, signed for longer, at less cost (or similar).

Unless Fox realizes his potential - and does so for the Canes, not as a free agent - this trade looks to be a pretty easy win for the Flames beyond this season.

This has been one of the most mystifying periods in this site's history to me, I just can't get my head around the counter argument to this trade.

The Flames managed so many things with this deal

1. They added a right shot right winger
2. They didn't blast a huge gaping hole into their blueline
3. They moved on from two assets that they likely weren't keeping
4. They realigned their top two pairings that may help return Brodie and Hamonic to what they're supposed to be
5. The two players they added come from a team that was coached by the new man and has a book
6. They solved what was clearly a two year dressing room issue (this isn't calling Hamilton cancer, but the brothers thing pointed to issues)
7. They got younger
8. They got cheaper when you think of what keeping Ferland would have cost
9. They have upside in the two pieces coming to Calgary, and may end up with the better all round defenseman when the dust settles. Lindholm is young and should improve, Hanifin almost certainly WILL improve

Two core pieces in ... one core piece out

[shotinthebacklund]

^ this. All day this^

[FlamesFanTrev]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Craig Button said practically the opposite and regardless of what you say about him he probably knows more than we do.

Yea he was dynamite as the Flames GM.

[MrButtons]

Originally Posted by Bingo

This has been one of the most mystifying periods in this site's history to me, I just can't get my head around the counter argument to this trade.

The Flames managed so many things with this deal

1. They added a right shot right winger
2. They didn't blast a huge gaping hole into their blueline
3. They moved on from two assets that they likely weren't keeping
4. They realigned their top two pairings that may help return Brodie and Hamonic to what they're supposed to be
5. The two players they added come from a team that was coached by the new man and has a book
6. They solved what was clearly a two year dressing room issue (this isn't calling Hamilton cancer, but the brothers thing pointed to issues)
7. They got younger
8. They got cheaper when you think of what keeping Ferland would have cost
9. They have upside in the two pieces coming to Calgary, and may end up with the better all round defenseman when the dust settles. Lindholm is young and should improve, Hanifin almost certainly WILL improve

Two core pieces in ... one core piece out

Your logic has no place here

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by MrButtons

Your logic has no place here

I just can't imagine the tread-ware to the brain so many incur from driving in the rumble strips on both sides of the highway.

The smooth stuff is in the middle away from the extremes