[PGT] Flames fall to TB 5-2

[heep223]

Originally Posted by FBI

Is this thread safe to come back in to read yet?

Don't bother.

It's the biggest tl;dr (too long; didn't read) I've ever seen.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

So there we have it.

icing call. bad game.

Doesn't matter what else positive he could have done.

Still doesn't answer my question regardless.

It was used as an example of him shying away from contact. It wasn't JUST the icing, it happened several times over the game. And they commented on his other positive aspects, so your second comment is just plain incorrect.

Further, I don't think that's "microscopic". Quite the opposite - they are looking at a big part of the overall package - going into tough areas and winning battles, or at least making the best play.

Do you want people to lie and say it was all skittles and beer?

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It was used as an example of him shying away from contact. It wasn't JUST the icing, it happened several times over the game. And they commented on his other positive aspects, so your second comment is just plain incorrect.

Further, I don't think that's "microscopic". Quite the opposite - they are looking at a big part of the overall package - going into tough areas and winning battles, or at least making the best play.

Do you want people to lie and say it was all skittles and beer?

So where was C4L's short story on Granlund's faults? I know as much as we love Gaudreau, he had a lot of glaring issues last night as well.

And don't get me started on the drop passes.

So again, why does there exist this vocal group of posters who only bash Baertschi, even when he had a strong game?

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

So there we have it.

icing call. bad game.

Doesn't matter what else positive he could have done.

I commend you on your avid defense of Sven, but three days of this is reaching Moon like levels of blind defensiveness of Phaneuf.

Sven had a better game yesterday I agree, but it still is not enough. You have to see theres obviously a reason he is being benched late in games or not being handed PP minutes in lieu of Setoguchi. Although the truth of the matter for the power play is, RH shot vs LH shot and the flames need the RH look on the right side. Simple as it may be, that's why Seto gets those two minutes of PP.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by dammage79

I commend you on your avid defense of Sven, but three days of this is reaching Moon like levels of blind defensiveness of Phaneuf.

Sven had a better game yesterday I agree, but it still is not enough. You have to see theres obviously a reason he is being benched late in games or not being handed PP minutes in lieu of Setoguchi. Although the truth of the matter for the power play is, RH shot vs LH shot and the flames need the RH look on the right side. Simple as it may be, that's why Seto gets those two minutes of PP.

Who is arguing that it's enough?

I hold Baertschi is a greater light than apparently this entire forum, but that also means I expect a lot out of him.

He had two relatively passive games to start and then really kicked it up last night. It's not enough to keep him on the team. I'm not arguing that. It's a game to build upon, not criticize ruthlessly.

I'm just frustrated that this negative spiral seems to be getting worse despite his strong performance yesterday. It is not justified.

[GioforPM]

So where was C4L's short story on Granlund's faults? I know as much as we love Gaudreau, he had a lot of glaring issues last night as well.

I believe he was responding to posts about Sven.

People (me) posted about JG's faults, as did others.

And don't get me started on the drop passes.

Literally everyone commented on those.

So again, why does there exist this vocal group of posters who only bash Baertschi, even when he had a strong game?

He didn't have a strong game. He had an improved game, which wasn't a high bar. And I suspect they respond to the suggestions that (a) he had a great game and (b) Hartley is screwing him by not playing him more. Mostly the latter.

That's it. I suggest (again) that Sven talk goes to the Sven thread. I won't respond to more here. There are clearly posters who are very tired of it.
__________________

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

If somebody brings up a good point, be it another forum or an article or on the radio, it is worthy of mention. This is not a new concept that I've invented.

But glad you ignored it as you are wont to do.

I simply do not care to engage with you. How my post was presented on HF matters to what sort of reply it receives. Context is meaningful, and I just do not care to go to HF, search out the post in question, and follow the whatever thread you are talking about in order to formulate whatever rebuttal (again, if I even have one) is appropriate. I simply do not care enough to do so. If I did, I would have done so already.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Literally everyone commented on those.

So why was Baertschi the centre of attention in this thread? And not the plays that actually led to goals against?

He didn't have a strong game. He had an improved game, which wasn't a high bar. And I suspect they respond to the suggestions that (a) he had a great game and (b) Hartley is screwing him by not playing him more. Mostly the latter.

He didn't have a strong game? So says you and a handful of other posters on this forum, but his underlying numbers, his takeaway, his scoring opportunities say otherwise.

You guys hold him in such disregard yet expect the world out of him.

Again, it doesn't make sense.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I simply do not care to engage with you. How my post was presented on HF matters to what sort of reply it receives. Context is meaningful, and I just do not care to go to HF, search out the post in question, and follow the whatever thread you are talking about in order to formulate whatever rebuttal (again, if I even have one) is appropriate. I simply do not care enough to do so. If I did, I would have done so already.

I laid out the context. Somebody quoted your post on HF and liked it. Another poster responded with that post. There is no trick here. I'm doing anything that hasn't been done in the past.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1764969&page=6 top post

3 posts prior was your quote.

If you don't want to respond, that's fine. That doesn't mean it holds any less worth.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Who is arguing that it's enough?

I hold Baertschi is a greater light than apparently this entire forum, but that also means I expect a lot out of him.

He had two relatively passive games to start and then really kicked it up last night. It's not enough to keep him on the team. I'm not arguing that. It's a game to build upon, not criticize ruthlessly.

I'm just frustrated that this negative spiral seems to be getting worse despite his strong performance yesterday. It is not justified.

The problem is, yesterday was not a strong performance by Sven. It was an improved performance over his previous two outings but that's it. There's signs of life in Sven yet but the result from the coaching staff and fans you're expecting won't be coming unless he improves more consistently and drastically over a short period of time.

We all know what Sven is/was, a legit top 6 scoring forward prospect. He's simply not close that point yet regardless of past or present circumstances.

Forget the others' view on Sven right now, it'll drive you insane. and it'd be nice if this endless argument would just go away.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

So where was C4L's short story on Granlund's faults? I know as much as we love Gaudreau, he had a lot of glaring issues last night as well.

And don't get me started on the drop passes.

So again, why does there exist this vocal group of posters who only bash Baertschi, even when he had a strong game?

Did you really want a summary for each individual player? The Flames lost 5-2 in a very disjointed game with huge blunders. I didn't go into Russell's breakdowns, or Widemans, or the majority of players.

I commented on a few select players. Sven was one of them because:
1) He is the lastest and greatest call-up
2) I have been trying to watch him play more specifically while watching games (i.e. taking my own advice from this fabled post on HF) so I can better gauge where I personally think he is, and provided feedback in my summary.

Asking why I am singling out a summary on Sven rather than Granlund, is about as relevant and important as why you are so committed to discussing my 'thrashing' of Sven (which it was not) and not that of Gaudreau. Where are the multiple posts questioning my perceptions of him from the last game that were made in that same post?

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I laid out the context. Somebody quoted your post on HF and liked it. Another poster responded with that post. There is no trick here. I'm doing anything that hasn't been done in the past.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...1764969&page=6 top post

3 posts prior was your quote.

If you don't want to respond, that's fine. That doesn't mean it holds any less worth.

It also means it doesn't hold any more worth. I am simply not interested in looking it up. I get all my Flames' worth of discussion and news on this site. I go to HF now and then when I have extra time to catch up on a few other teams. The last thing I wish to do is get baited into another Sven discussion on another site with you.

[doctajones428]

I stayed away from this thread last night because I assumed it would of been a Wideman/Russel bash fest (They were terrible and responsible for the half dozen or so breakaways on us) but nope, it's all Baertschi all the time.

Baertschi wasn't our worst player last night, not even close. Did he deserve a benching? Probably not, but like people have said, the game was on the line, you need your best players out there to try and squeeze out a win, and Baertschi, isn't one of our best players right now. He's improving, yes, he had his best game of the season, but that doesn't give you a seat on the shortened bench. Granlund and Joorish earned the right to be on the short bench in their previous games, and if Baertschi can string together a couple more games like he had last night, he will be getting the minutes during crunch time.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

So why was Baertschi the centre of attention in this thread?

Jesus, it's like talking to a wall. The reason he's the center of this thread is because people had high expectations for him and he's been passed by numerous prospects. Just having a good game isn't enough, not when he's been passed by so many. This is the kid who said he wanted to be the face of the franchise after Iginla left. Well he hasn't played well enough to be the face of the minor league club. If a guy has those expectations then he better step the #### up and play like it. He hasn't and he deserves the criticism he draws. Look at the organizational depth and where he's slipped to.

As FlashWalken likes to say, Baertschi was a 7 in a room full of 3s when he was drafted. Now he's in a room where there are a bunch of 7s, some 8s, and a couple 9s. To make matters worse Baertsch has aged a bit and seen the test of time cause his rating to slip to a 6 or maybe a 5. Sven just isn't the player he once was, or appeared to be, and that makes it tough on him. He, and his overly zealous fans, are going to have to accept that as he tries to find a place on the team. As it is, his hopes of being an impact player in this league are gone. He should have arrived already. He's not going to have to find a role as a supplemental scorer if he wants to play in the NHL. He's now competing with lesser lights and still is on the wrong end of the stick. Hence the criticism.

If you want the attention to be drawn off the guy my suggestion is to stop defending him for a while and see if he can put it together by any means. He's struggling and people are noticing it. When you come on here and say what a great game Sven just had, which is counter to the vast majority of viewers, including the professionals, you are just inviting added scrutiny, which doesn't play well for the player. Just let it go. Maybe he turns it around and then you can comeback and crow how smart you were back in the day.

[TheDebaser]

I personally look forward to reading much more of this exhilarating discussion in the weeks to come.

Will Ashasx defend Sven?!?! Will Sven light the world on fire? Will Sven pout his way to Russia?!?! Will posters eventually settle into a reasonable middle ground?!?! Find out next week!

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I simply do not care to engage with you. How my post was presented on HF matters to what sort of reply it receives. Context is meaningful, and I just do not care to go to HF, search out the post in question, and follow the whatever thread you are talking about in order to formulate whatever rebuttal (again, if I even have one) is appropriate. I simply do not care enough to do so. If I did, I would have done so already.

I'm like you and don't read HF for good reasons, but I was curious to see what reception your excellent analysis received. I just read through that thread and you can blame that hijack on ForeverFlameFan. He took your post and ran it over there. I don't think that's fair and puts you in a position of not being able to defend your commentary. What is posted here should stay here for discussion. You should be happy as most agreed with your post. But then again, they should have.

[sureLoss]

Well at least one thing is for sure, Sven Baertschi is the most polarizing player in the Flames organization right now.

[united]

Wow, using single game corsi numbers to evaluate performance? Hilarious.

Ashasx, you jump all over corsi numbers after "good" games...why don't you ever post the corsi numbers of Gaudreau/Baertschi/Brodie when they have an "off" game?

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by united

Wow, using single game corsi numbers to evaluate performance? Hilarious.

Ashasx, you jump all over corsi numbers after "good" games...why don't you ever post the corsi numbers of Gaudreau/Baertschi/Brodie when they have an off game?

Corsi numbers aren't the end all, but when Baertschi was on the ice, 17 shot attempts were taken for and only 7 were taken against. Corsi will not tell you how good a player is, but it helps give you an objective indication of general possession numbers. With what some have posted as to how poorly he played, his Corsi shouldn't have been nearly that strong. But I'm the only one with bias.

As for your second comment, I haven't made it a habit to criticize any one player.

[Fire]

At this point I hope Sven gets traded so we can stop talking about him. Though I'm sure even a trade won't quiet down some people.

[ComixZone]

...it almost feels like some people are clamouring for Sven to fail. It's as if his very presence in our organization is offensive. Quite baffling.

The critical-eye that is being turned towards Sven right now is overbearing. It's beyond being critical, it's a group attempt to pile on. For what purpose is what I question. He has struggled, but why people are using those struggles to bury him is upsetting, speaking as a Flames fan. He's played 3 NHL games so far this season, and he looked significantly better in game 3 than he did in game 1. Why people choose to ignore that is befuddling.