Bob McKenzie's Draft Ranking - June 23 5:30PM MT - TSN

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by handgroen

yeah and i can't for the life of me figure out why they haven't posted it in the on demand section of the website either

They just finished picks 1-30, I missed 1-15 though

EDIT: Fan960 picked Sam Bennet going to the flames. Ho Sang not chosen in first round, DeAngelo picked 30th to NJ

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Crazy list. Big emphasis on purely skilled forwards regardless of their size. NHL teams aren't going to see it the same way IMO. Is this your prediction of how the draft will go or just where you'd take them?

The order in which I would select the players in question having no thought for team need or other tangential issues. I don't believe for a second that the actual draft order will look anything like that list.

You are underrating size, strength, defensive play and character it seems.

This is correct, except I'm not underrating them, I'm simply not prioritizing them. In fact I am not prioritizing any particular tools, because I feel that assessing players on the basis of individual particular skills they may possess simply clouds the issue. The point is to select the best hockey player. Whether a guy has strength and "character" (whatever that means) or not, if it doesn't result in him playing the game better, I do not care about it. That being said, I am also not prioritizing specific offensive tools - otherwise Virtanen, with his speed and shot, would be well inside the top 10 and Nylander, who is probably the most skilled player in the draft, would be #1.

As for size, this has always been overrated. These are 17 year old kids playing against other teenagers. If a guy has a "man's body", and is successful in junior, it's a pretty good assumption that a large part of his success in junior is owing to the fact that he's playing against opponents who do not have that particular attribute. The instant he steps into the pro leagues he immediately loses this advantage, and will never regain it.

DeAngelo looks likely to drop due to character concerns. Bet he's on the flames do not draft list.

Having a "do not draft" list is pretty stupid, in my view, but it's especially stupid if consensus top 40 picks are on the list. If a guy who's the 12th best hockey player in the draft is get-able with the 25th pick, you take him. I don't care what the rumours are about him.

[Phanuthier]

The more I read about Ho Sang, the more I like. I don't really believe he is a head case, he probably thinks as highly of himself as any other prospect. The only difference is he's honest about it.

[Five-hole]

Brian Burke has said he values humility. He thinks hockey is a game that teaches humility and he thinks good hockey players are humble and thankful for what they have.

Ho-Sang is just not that guy. You can't change a person that fundamentally.

There's a huge difference between confidence and arrogance, between confidence and cockiness, and between confidence and hubris. Confidence and humility can co-exist.

I would be willing to be that if Ho-Sang is around for our second 2nd rounder we don't take him.

For the record, I'm not saying I agree with Burke here. But it sounds like Ho-Sang should consider a career shift and go get an MBA or play an individualistic sport, not a team sport with a "culture of conformity" (which I do think exists, for better or worse).

[Phanuthier]

Yeah I"m sure Ho Sang is on the Flames blacklist. Just saying I like him and would take him with our 2nd, even when I know we won't.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

The order in which I would select the players in question having no thought for team need or other tangential issues. I don't believe for a second that the actual draft order will look anything like that list.

This is correct, except I'm not underrating them, I'm simply not prioritizing them. In fact I am not prioritizing any particular tools, because I feel that assessing players on the basis of individual particular skills they may possess simply clouds the issue. The point is to select the best hockey player. Whether a guy has strength and "character" (whatever that means) or not, if it doesn't result in him playing the game better, I do not care about it. That being said, I am also not prioritizing specific offensive tools - otherwise Virtanen, with his speed and shot, would be well inside the top 10 and Nylander, who is probably the most skilled player in the draft, would be #1.

As for size, this has always been overrated. These are 17 year old kids playing against other teenagers. If a guy has a "man's body", and is successful in junior, it's a pretty good assumption that a large part of his success in junior is owing to the fact that he's playing against opponents who do not have that particular attribute. The instant he steps into the pro leagues he immediately loses this advantage, and will never regain it.

Having a "do not draft" list is pretty stupid, in my view, but it's especially stupid if consensus top 40 picks are on the list. If a guy who's the 12th best hockey player in the draft is get-able with the 25th pick, you take him. I don't care what the rumours are about him.

Well I'm glad the Flames don't see things the way you do.

1) Character is hugely important. It affects on ice because guys with high character are more likely to continue to improve and thus succeed. There's a lot of improvement all these players still have to do and it happens if you work hard. Burke talks about them having multiple words for work ethic that they're looking for in Flames players. Being a good teammate is important in creating a positive dressing room culture. Getting all your players working hard and putting everything on the line is a huge part of creating a winning culture. That you don't think is important is a real head scratcher. Leadership can come from high character guys. Determination and work ethic can mean you are a consistent performer instead of a guy who disappears for long stretches. Character does translate onto the ice, not sure how you can't see that.

2) Your view on size is way off IMO. Smaller players have a much more difficult time adapting to the NHL because some of the moves they use in junior just won't work at the NHL level and they don't have the size and strength to power through checks. NHL calibre defensemen can manhandle smaller forwards and not everyone is determined to fight through it and succeed. Bigger players have a much easier time translating their game to the NHL. They don't lose their size advantage, that is silly to suggest. Guys like Ritchie and Ekblad will have elite size/strength at the NHL level because they're already bigger than your average NHLer. Ekblad will be able to manhandle most NHL forwards. Ritchie will be able to power through the checking of your average NHL defenseman. Smaller forwards are much more easily contained and shut down by big defensemen. Smaller defensemen have a much harder time trying to contain and shut down big forwards. This seems so obvious to me that I find your argument bewildering.

You massively underrate both character and size. But the Flames don't so I'm happy we're in good hands.

[jaydub74]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

I'll need to see a link for that...

I remember some fitness questions, but not attitude/character problems.

RE: Getzlaf

I personally know his billeted parents when he played for the Hitmen. They'll tell you he was a great kid, with excellent skill and talent but was lazy as F*$K. He slept in, didn't work out and floated by on his skill. Sounds very similar to Ho-whatever his name is.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well I'm glad the Flames don't see things the way you do.

They clearly do and so do a number of other teams. Just my opinion. Only way to see who's right in this class is to wait five years.

Things you may find obvious, though, are often a product of them having been drilled into everyone's skull as common hockey knowledge as to how to win that is largely a bunch of BS based in nothing but storylines. They don't necessarily translate to success and a lot of it isn't measurable anyway. Tools don't matter, the way they translate on ice for the particular individual is what matters. And really, it's not like the "smaller" guys are Theo Fleury sized; Nylander and Kapanen are what, 5'10-11? Yeah I'll take that plus game breaking talent every day against 6'2 210.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Worth a read for those calling Ho-Sang a brat.

We have to keep in mind the hockey establishment is extremely conservative. I'd guess to a hockey manager or coach, half the players in the NFL and NBA are head-cases. There's definitely risk around Ho-Sang, but I don't think the guy is a d-bag. He's just far more of an independent thinker than the conformist world of hockey is accustomed to.

I think the article is kind of a crock. His mom is an independent thinker that made him ask why? So he challenges coaches, curfews, practice times, etc? I don't see the correlation. Likely he's not a complete d-bag but there's something that rubs a lot of people the wrong way. The article makes him sound more cerebral which is likely just his camp putting positive spin stories out there.

He admires that a guy like Johnny Manziel excels on the football field and celebrates off the field in Las Vegas.

Ho-Sang sees a bit of himself in the way that Patrick Kane plays, but also loves how Kane embraces life off the ice, even when it gets him in trouble.

"He parties all the time. There's pictures of him shirtless, partying regularly. There's stories about him everywhere. That's cool," Ho-Sang said. "You look at Patrick Kane, he's having a good time. He's getting the job done. I guarantee you ask Patrick Kane how much he loves to party, he'd say '10,' [on a scale of] one to 10. You can tell.

"The bottle's popping, all this stuff. He's absolutely hammered at all the parades. That's hilarious. These guys are having a blast. I know they've won, so people are like, it's OK."

Like everything with Ho-Sang, context is important. He says he doesn't go out partying. He just admires those who embrace life, those who have more going on than what's happening on the ice.

These quotes alone doesn't make me run scared from him, but makes me roll my eyes and think he's a whole lot shallower than he, his agent or this article tries to make him out to be.

[RyZ]

Sam Cosentino had some interesting things to say about Ho Sang towards the end of the mock draft after he didnt go in the 1st round. Give it a listen if you have a chance.

[Read Only]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

They clearly do and so do a number of other teams. Just my opinion. Only way to see who's right in this class is to wait five years.

Both Burke and Trevilling have talked about how important character is so how do they "clearly" see it like you?

And you what has become much more overrated (by fans) than size? Guys under 5'10 all have such great skill and "game breaking talent."

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by RyZ

Sam Cosentino had some interesting things to say about Ho Sang towards the end of the mock draft after he didnt go in the 1st round. Give it a listen if you have a chance.

Do you have a link?

[Read Only]

Originally Posted by jaydub74

RE: Getzlaf

I personally know his billeted parents when he played for the Hitmen. They'll tell you he was a great kid, with excellent skill and talent but was lazy as F*$K. He slept in, didn't work out and floated by on his skill. Sounds very similar to Ho-whatever his name is.

Ho Sang's issues don't seem to be laziness but that he feels he knows better than everyone else, is above listening to anyone else, is above working with teammates and in a structure and, for me most concerning, nothing is his fault it is everyone else's fault.

The BS about it being because hockey demands conformity is just that BS. Hockey teams/coaches/GMs want to win. They will take an alien with green and purple hair that shoots using a spatula if they think it can help them win. Hi Sang's problem is the crap he pulls doesn't help teams win and his talent isn't close to high enough to justify his "confidence" or "questioning nature."

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by Read Only

Both Burke and Trevilling have talked about how important character is so how do they "clearly" see it like you?

Sorry I meant they clearly see things differently.

And you what has become much more overrated (by fans) than size? Guys under 5'10 all have such great skill and "game breaking talent."

This does not appear to be written in any language I comprehend.

[Read Only]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

Sorry I meant they clearly see things differently.

This does not appear to be written in any language I comprehend.

Missed a know between you and what.

Seems straight forward fans tend to overrate the talent of smaller guys attributing much more game breaking ability than they have. I personally think it is because it is exciting to think you can get a great talent outside the top 3 because a guy fell based on size and fans want to think it is there team that will do it.

[19Yzerman19]

That is obviously wrong based on past experience... Nothing hurts a guy's draft standing like the impression that he's undersized. Otherwise Nic Petan would have been drafted higher, and Brayden Point would be in the top 10. Again, these guys aren't that undersized.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

That is obviously wrong based on past experience... Nothing hurts a guy's draft standing like the impression that he's undersized. Otherwise Nic Petan would have been drafted higher, and Brayden Point would be in the top 10. Again, these guys aren't that undersized.

You seem to underestimate how easy it is for a 6'2 200+ LB defenceman to physically manhandle, shut down and contain 5'10 forwards.

Pierre-Marc Bouchard was a game changing talent one draft year and Minnesota took him top 10. He's ended up as a power play specialist and often times 4th liner.

Have you been a fan of hockey a long time? Many smaller guys just don't translate their game changing skill into the NHL. The ones who do are the exceptions.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

You seem to underestimate how easy it is for a 6'2 200+ LB defenceman to physically manhandle, shut down and contain 5'10 forwards.

Pierre-Marc Bouchard was a game changing talent one draft year and Minnesota took him top 10. He's ended up as a power play specialist and often times 4th liner.

Have you been a fan of hockey a long time? Many smaller guys just don't translate their game changing skill into the NHL. The ones who do are the exceptions.

All my life man. Watch about 140 games a season and read about hockey an hour plus every day. Others with more hockey knowledge than either of us agree with me, and others with more hockey knowledge than either of us agree with you. I'd appreciate you not being obnoxiously condescending.

There are disappointments - and downright busts - of all shapes, sizes and positions. Your example does not change my personal view as to incorrect priorities in NHL scouting generally.

Individual examples don't really impress me very much... for example, I'll note that Shane O'Brien is a 6'3 210lb defenseman who would not, I don't think, find it very easy to manhandle 5'10'' Pavel Datsyuk. Tyler Johnson is more promising up and coming centers in the league at 5'9''. Lots of examples you can look to to try to prove any point you like, but it doesn't really add any more to the discussion than trying to imply that the person you disagree with is somehow new to the sport.

[Read Only]

Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19

That is obviously wrong based on past experience... Nothing hurts a guy's draft standing like the impression that he's undersized. Otherwise Nic Petan would have been drafted higher, and Brayden Point would be in the top 10. Again, these guys aren't that undersized.

What does where a guy is drafted have to do with fans opinions?

And what have those guys done at the NHL level to prove they were drafted low?

Patrick was tiny but talented he went first, Gagner pretty small the same year but went 5th. Small can still go high but they have to show a reason to take them that high.

What hurts a guys draft standing more than anything is looking like he can't play in the NHL. Big or small, no matter what stats you put up at the junior level if guys don't think you can translate that to the NHL level you will drop.

[sureLoss]

Anyone that was hoping for Brycen Martin, according to the following article he interviewed with 20 teams, but not the Calgary Flames.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...292/story.html