Joe "Frickin" Colborne

[GioforPM]

[QUOTE=Bandwagon In Flames;5320369]The leafs didn't think.
QUOTE]

FYP

I was at a high school charity event in Springbank yesterday and Joe had donated a jersey to the silent auction. Didn't win it. He's a good local kid who supports his community the whole year round.

[868904]

I've said it before and i'll say it again, but Colborne should develop into a Martin Hanzal type.

A perennial 30 to 40 point guy who is a beast on the puck and the cycle. Colborne showed that he can be much more physical too, which would make him even more valuable than Hanzal.

Only thing missing is the faceoff acumen. Colborne seems to do decently in the dot for a young player, i'm not sure why Hartley doesn't use him more there. Having a 6'5" centreman who is good in the draws will be extremely valuable for this team.

I really think Colborne should be the 3rd line centre instead of Backlund. Backlund just doesn't have the strength in that role, plus Backlund has always had success on the wing in Sweden especially when he played with big Patrik Berglund. Plus I think being on the wing would allow Backlund to be more creative with his offensive game. Flames can still benefit from Backlund's defensive skills if he's on the wing.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by 868904

I've said it before and i'll say it again, but Colborne should develop into a Martin Hanzal type.

A perennial 30 to 40 point guy who is a beast on the puck and the cycle. Colborne showed that he can be much more physical too, which would make him even more valuable than Hanzal.

Only thing missing is the faceoff acumen. Colborne seems to do decently in the dot for a young player, i'm not sure why Hartley doesn't use him more there. Having a 6'5" centreman who is good in the draws will be extremely valuable for this team.

I really think Colborne should be the 3rd line centre instead of Backlund. Backlund just doesn't have the strength in that role, plus Backlund has always had success on the wing in Sweden especially when he played with big Patrik Berglund. Plus I think being on the wing would allow Backlund to be more creative with his offensive game. Flames can still benefit from Backlund's defensive skills if he's on the wing.

I had higher expectations for Colborne, thinking that he could be the next Joe Thornton due to his great physical parameters. You may be right, though. Hopefully, he could continue to develop nicely into a big and dangerous 2nd line centreman.

I do like your suggestion on Backlund. It looks like he would never be able to outgrow the smaller centre role on the 3rd or 4th line. Being on the wing, could actually work better for him and for the team.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by 868904

Only thing missing is the faceoff acumen. Colborne seems to do decently in the dot for a young player, i'm not sure why Hartley doesn't use him more there. Having a 6'5" centreman who is good in the draws will be extremely valuable for this team.

I really think Colborne should be the 3rd line centre instead of Backlund. Backlund just doesn't have the strength in that role, plus Backlund has always had success on the wing in Sweden especially when he played with big Patrik Berglund. Plus I think being on the wing would allow Backlund to be more creative with his offensive game. Flames can still benefit from Backlund's defensive skills if he's on the wing.

Sorry, but this proposal is a bad idea for several reasons.

You realize there's more to being a centre than faceoffs right? Colborne has not looked good at centre in the NHL. His offensive success comes from playing a forechecking game, and centre's are generally never forechecking along the boards.

Backlund is an ideal 3rd line centre. I have no clue why you think otherwise. His defensive game is down right amazing and if he's moved to the wing than he won't be back-checking nearly as often. There's no reason to take the Flames best defensive forward and put him in a more offensive role.

[CroFlames]

These old people are precious

Spoiler!

And what a happy fellow Joe is serving coffee:

Spoiler!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Sorry, but this proposal is a bad idea for several reasons.

You realize there's more to being a centre than faceoffs right? Colborne has not looked good at centre in the NHL. His offensive success comes from playing a forechecking game, and centre's are generally never forechecking along the boards.

Backlund is an ideal 3rd line centre. I have no clue why you think otherwise. His defensive game is down right amazing and if he's moved to the wing than he won't be back-checking nearly as often. There's no reason to take the Flames best defensive forward and put him in a more offensive role.

I think Colborne has a decent, but not amazing, defensive game. Mind you, it's been on the wing (so much easier).

I had Backlund pegged as a great defensive player, but it didn't really show as much as I hoped this year. His size hurts him a bit on that front.

Centres never forecheck along the boards? Joe Thornton and Ryan Getzlaf say hi.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think Colborne has a decent, but not amazing, defensive game. Mind you, it's been on the wing (so much easier).

I had Backlund pegged as a great defensive player, but it didn't really show as much as I hoped this year. His size hurts him a bit on that front.

Centres never forecheck along the boards? Joe Thornton and Ryan Getzlaf say hi.

Hence why I put 'generally' in front of those words...

The Centreman's job is to be the first forward back so you don't typically see them behind the attacking net. Behind the net is where Colborne get's to effortlessly possess and dish out the puck. Colborne isn't quick enough to be at both ends of the ice at all times like a TJ Brodie, which is likely why you see him holding back offensively when he's playing centre.

Backlund is probably the best transitional player on the Flames. He does all the little things right to get possession back and lead the rush. It's easy to mix him up with a defenseman sometimes with the way he hounds the puck on the back-check.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Hence why I put 'generally' in front of those words...

The Centreman's job is to be the first forward back so you don't typically see them behind the attacking net. Behind the net is where Colborne get's to effortlessly possess and dish out the puck. Colborne isn't quick enough to be at both ends of the ice at all times like a TJ Brodie, which is likely why you see him holding back offensively when he's playing centre.

Backlund is probably the best transitional player on the Flames. He does all the little things right to get possession back and is easy to mix up with a defenseman sometimes with the way he hounds the puck on the back-check.

Say what? Even Stajan, who is firstly a defensive centre and only secondarily trying to score, and who isn't the fastest guy out there plays behind the offensive net a lot.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

The Centreman's job is to be the first forward back so you don't typically see them behind the attacking net.

Not really. The first forward back is the first forward who can get back. When a line has possession in the offensive zone they're not worried about positions. So a C could easily be behind the net and get caught there if they turn the puck over. Think of a cycle - all three forwards are deep at different times. It certainly isn't the C's job to be first back.

On the flip side the C definitely does have defensive responsibility to support the puck in his own zone, when the other team has possession.

It's hard to generalize but if Colborne played C, he definitely would still be involved in utilizing his strengths of cycling, board battles and forechecking in the offensive zone.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Say what? Even Stajan, who is firstly a defensive centre and only secondarily trying to score, and who isn't the fastest guy out there plays behind the offensive net a lot.

Show me a play where Stajan is forechecking behind the net and isn't the first person to enter the zone. Half of Stajan's points are from off the rush plays where he's the first man into the zone, skates behind the net and centers a pass in the slot to the trailing winger. It's a bit different than cycling plays and fore-checking behind the net.

You will NEVER see a centreman pressuring the other teams defense while they have control of the puck. Plain and simple. Because that Centreman is responsible for whoever the defenseman passes the puck up to.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by heep223

Not really. The first forward back is the first forward who can get back. When a line has possession in the offensive zone they're not worried about positions. So a C could easily be behind the net and get caught there if they turn the puck over. Think of a cycle - all three forwards are deep at different times. It certainly isn't the C's job to be first back.

On the flip side the C definitely does have defensive responsibility to support the puck in his own zone, when the other team has possession.

It's hard to generalize but if Colborne played C, he definitely would still be involved in utilizing his strengths of cycling, board battles and forechecking in the offensive zone.

Agreed, team mates cover for each other when they are out of position. Just like a forward would cover for a pinching defensemen. But when all is said and done, you see the Centre down low with the defense, and the wingers circling around the opponents defense waiting for a breakout pass.

Colborne has played C the last couple seasons and he sure didn't venture to the boards when playing centre. He stays in open ice where he's less effective.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Show me a play where Stajan is forechecking behind the net and isn't the first person to enter the zone. Half of Stajan's points are from off the rush plays where he's the first man into the zone, skates behind the net and centers a pass in the slot to the trailing winger. It's a bit different than cycling plays and fore-checking behind the net.

You will NEVER see a centreman pressuring the other teams defense while they have control of the puck. Plain and simple. Because that Centreman is responsible for whoever the defenseman passes the puck up to.

The centre is very often forechecking when the D have the puck if there is a good chance of forcing the puck away and they are trying to outnumber the D. Who else goes in to outnumber? The other winger?

The 2-1-2 Forecheck is one of the most common forecheck used. The idea is to always pressure the puck with two players until possesion is gained. The third player needs to remain in the high slot for two reasons. First, it is harder for opponents defense to cover the high slot area. Second, if the opponents gain posession of the puck and break out, then the player in the high slot is in good position to help the defense and prevent an odd-man rush. In this diagram, the weak side wing has positioned themselves in the high slot while the center and strong side wing have moved into the corner to try and get control of the puck. For age groups that allow checking, ideally the first man in takes the body and the second player goes for the loose puck. - See more at: http://www.icehockeysystems.com/hock....qPBZcXZx.dpuf

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Agreed, team mates cover for each other when they are out of position. Just like a forward would cover for a pinching defensemen. But when all is said and done, you see the Centre down low with the defense, and the wingers circling around the opponents defense waiting for a breakout pass.

Colborne has played C the last couple seasons and he sure didn't venture to the boards when playing centre. He stays in open ice where he's less effective.

Didn't watch Colborne enough at C to venture an opinion on that.

But it's not the C's job to be first guy back on the backcheck or stick to the center of the ice, and there is typically no specific role of a C vs a winger in the offensive zone. A center gets as involved in board battles and forechecking just as much as wingers.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Show me a play where Stajan is forechecking behind the net and isn't the first person to enter the zone. Half of Stajan's points are from off the rush plays where he's the first man into the zone, skates behind the net and centers a pass in the slot to the trailing winger. It's a bit different than cycling plays and fore-checking behind the net.

You will NEVER see a centreman pressuring the other teams defense while they have control of the puck. Plain and simple. Because that Centreman is responsible for whoever the defenseman passes the puck up to.

Game 3, Round one. Jooris the first guy in, the D get the puck, Stajan continues the forecheck behind the net, draws a penalty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=2PkwqXNLoCc

[Bandwagon In Flames]

When the other team has the puck in their zone, what does a centreman do? He skates back to the neutral zone while one of the wingers forechecks to put pressure on their defense (unless your playing the trap system). This is what I'm getting at.. Of course the Centre can forecheck and support the play while the team has possession, but it's not the same thing as wingers crash and banging to regain puck possession.

You don't swap positions with your best forechecking forward and best defensive centre just because one has better faceoff numbers. It doesn't make sense and you aren't putting these guys in a position to succeed by doing this. Dispute that if you will, I'm not going to dispute the many systems employed by NHL teams.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Game 3, Round one. Jooris the first guy in, the D get the puck, Stajan continues the forecheck behind the net, draws a penalty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=2PkwqXNLoCc

Did you watch this clip? Jooris took the faceoff and was playing the centre position in this shorthanded opportunity.. Once Jooris skated around the net he went right back out of the zone in anticipation of the other team passing it out while stajan stuck around behind the net.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Did you watch this clip? Jooris took the faceoff and was playing the centre position in this shorthanded opportunity.. Once Jooris skated around the net he went right back out of the zone in anticipation of the other team passing it out while stajan stuck around behind the net.

It met your criteria (and Jooris was only centre because of faceoff side - Stajan is the full time centre).

But, OK, bad example? How about game 5, first goal? (17 seconds or so in). Stajan and Jones both go behind the net, force a pass to the boards, Stajan then forechecks to the boards and causes a turnover, resulting in a goal.

http://www.nhl.com/gamecenter/en/recap?id=2014030185

How about Bennett's disallowed goal against the Ducks? Jooris was centre, and was behind the net with Jones.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

When the other team has the puck in their zone, what does a centreman do? He skates back to the neutral zone while one of the wingers forechecks to put pressure on their defense (unless your playing the trap system). This is what I'm getting at..

No, he doesn't. When referring to the offensive and neutral zone (especially forechecking), the players are referred to as F1/F2/F3, meaning the first player to the puck, the supporting player and the trailer (to generalize). The C doesn't have a specific responsibility in terms of what you're talking about.

It all depends on where each player is positioned, where the puck is, who has the puck and where the opposing players are. It's just as likely that the centerman is the one pressuring the opposing D as a winger, if the opposition has possession in their zone. If the centerman is in a position to attack the puck, and the other two forwards are back, he will attack the puck (or pressure the d-men whichever way according to the system). There is no specific assignment to the C in the offensive zone or the neutral zone.

This type of summer debate is far more interesting to me than the Jankowski thread

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by heep223

No, he doesn't. When referring to the offensive and neutral zone (especially forechecking), the players are referred to as F1/F2/F3, meaning the first player to the puck, the supporting player and the trailer (to generalize). The C doesn't have a specific responsibility in terms of what you're talking about.

It all depends on where each player is positioned, where the puck is, who has the puck and where the opposing players are. It's just as likely that the centerman is the one pressuring the opposing D as a winger, if the opposition has possession in their zone. If the centerman is in a position to attack the puck, and the other two forwards are back, he will attack the puck (or pressure the d-men whichever way according to the system). There is no specific assignment to the C in the offensive zone or the neutral zone.

This type of summer debate is far more interesting to me than the Jankowski thread

You are correct. F1, F2 and F3 are how coaches describe it.

San Jose plays a system where the F1 is usually the centre, and approaches from the boards on the puck side and the winger attacks more down the middle (the other winger either high slot or towards the boards on the other side if the puck is being moved that way).

[puds]

I would argue that backlands average board play is better than Colbornes. Colbornes just makes the odd power move out of the corner that wows people. He had a few shifts in the playoffs that people seem to key in on. Generally, when Backlund tries to make these types of plays he either falls or generates a weak shot at the chest of the goalie which impresses no one.

However, Backlund tends to keep possession along the boards and generally make smart plays and rarely gets dominated in these situations the way that someone like Stajan was when matched up against Getzlaf.